I agree that we should be focused on these types of reasons why people leave the church, but if you’re going to call this list comprehensive, wouldn’t you also have to include the fact that some people leave because they just lose interest or get offended or commit adultery? I’m certainly not making the case that this accounts for the majority or anything, but if we’re talking comprehensive, those reasons should be included as well. This list seems to me to be a comprehensive list of why people choose to leave the church because they stop believing in it, but there are many who still believe every point of disputed doctrine, and leave for other reasons. I hope that makes sense.
It’s not surprising that this is the first comment on this post. Some one ran in and threw up the old “must have gotten offended or been commiting adultery.” *sigh*
“There are still many who believe every point of diputed doctrine, and leave for other reasons.”
I don’t believe that there are many, if any, people that would really feel this statement describes them, and yet classifly themselves as having left. If people really believe the church is true, they aren’t that stupid. While it would be comforting to those who are still members, to think that a lot who have left do or did so because of sin, it’s not the case. It’s very narrow minded and egocentric to try and throw that in there, as though it accounts for a significant portion of those who leave. It demeans others who choose not to live as you do, as though they are simply not good enough to live your higher way. Open your eyes. Quit parroting what the church wants you to believe. If they left “to sin” as you wish were true, then they didn’t really leave, did they? They just went inactive.
John is talking about those of us who deliberately walk out because of our personal integrity, not the other way around.
I never left, I just stopped going to the ward(s) because of “shunning”. I still love being with LDS because I feel closer to God because of one book called DOCTRINES & COVENANTS PEARL OF GREAT PRICE, and BOOK OF ABRAHAM. The doctrine has changed my life. I do not come to the ward, and I never answer the phone when any one of the congregations or missionaries call me. I just live by the book. I go to D/C for all my needs with God, and pray to him and Jesus, I try to live by the ways that being a Mormon makes sense, because PEOPLE have changed it up, not God or Jesus, there is a message there and as I typed the word “MESSAGE” the lady on t.v. said “…there is a message there”… and as I typed message again, the woman said “.,..they took their message to the internet!” God speaks in many forms, and for me I use D/C/ POGP. You should go there now and just read it after praying to God on your issues and then take note of dates, like last two digits of your birth date, or the day it is when you prayed and you go right to that section. E.G., I am having many problems with my family so I started praying on it and then turning to the sections of all our births, meaning Section 61, section 27, section 59, section 31 (which to me tells me everything I needed to know) and you read it, but read it like it’s “veiled” in some places and pick out certain words and phrases and string them together as if God is talking about you, not whatever it is they are discussing in the book and you use your pen to underline and circle the words and sentences you see, and from there you keep looking and the answers come as to why… ” In my case Section 31 of D/C POGP told me I suffer many family ailments and that I will never be the doctor to my family, nor will I see them much, they’ve turned toward the vanities of the earth and turned from God. Yada yada” But I’ve used it to find God without having to have a visiting teacher or go to the church or even Conference where I’d be shunned and unhappy, because the congregation feels that on a whole and was jealous of me because I could read doctrines like that. That’s not easy for the rabble, but so easy now for me. Go to it, and you will see. The Mormons left me one thing and that one thing is D/D P.O.G.P.
There is time for everything. A time to come and a time to go. When People join the church we don’t ask them why they joined. When they leave, we become alarmem, and begin to ask them questions. It is time to go, period.
because its a false church of satan only after your money
William
February 22, 2016 at 11:39 am
@fred grant & time to go — The sooner the people of this planet realize that there is NO “true” church and that there is no god / heaven above nor devil / hell below and, more importantly, people can stop being willfully ignorant about mystical belief systems; then (once people wake up) we can all start to move forward as a species.
The god or gods that prognosticators claim to exist are only those that men have created for the purpose of controlling the simple minded and for the manipulation of the weak spirited dullards that can’t even think themselves out of a box. It amazes me that people can still claim a belief in any form of mystical beings and (even more amazing) still desire to be aligned with any form of religion.
So, I am glad to see that you both are finally moving on!
Spuggy1
December 20, 2016 at 1:15 pm
This is not so much a reply as a comment on William’s post.
While most atheists claim their belief there is no God is based on reason, I haven’t seen their reasons or reasoning even though I’ve asked quite a few times now.
See what William wrote:
“The god or gods that prognosticators claim to exist are only those that men have created for the purpose of controlling the simple minded and for the manipulation of the weak spirited dullards that can’t even think themselves out of a box.”
Hardly facts or careful reasoning? Dr. Borruso, who believes in God, has pinned remarks such as the above with some precision:
To quote from Silvano Borruso’s The ART of THINKING, p.45: “A widespread one is the argument ad hominem, directed at the person who argues instead of being directed at what is being said (written).
The lowest, and meanest, type of such an argument is the direct insult. Reviling an opponent and covering him up in abuse was common practice in pre-internet days; it is now attaining mammoth proportions in the so-called social (in reality grossly anti-social) media.”
Atheists dismiss St. Thomas Aquinas’ five proofs there is a God.
So I’m waiting for an atheist to come up with six (better) proofs there is no God.
There is time for everything. A time to come and a time to go. Let them go in peace. when they joined the church, no one asked them why. When they leave, we become alarmed. Let them go. Why do we feel pain when they leave.
A friend from Africa served a mission in california in the the 80’s. He brought African-Americans to the church–because, they were the people he could reach. His mission President’s wife told him not to bring African-Americans to the church. Later, his White companion told him in the face that he would not go to Heaven (because Heaven is made for whites). At this point he had baptized a few African Americans into the church. No one asked these Africans why they joined the church. Down the years, when they have read enough of church history, experience a whole lot, they decided it was time to go away. There and then, local leaders began to ask why they were departing in droves. The answer is that it is time to G, O, go –period.
On the east coast, somewhere in Virginia a girl from the west coast of Africa was given a list of names(in-actives). Two hundred in all. Coming from a prominent LDS family in Africa, she was given this list, perharps, she could recognize and influence some to come back to the church. This girl told me, the Africans who left the church have reasons. The racist nature of the church, racist principles, checked history, Lies, deceit, Secrecy,lack of transperency; while claiming “this the only true church.”
Who told you this is the only true church? JESUS?
The African Missionary finished his mission and went home. Told his experience to a number us. Later, we came face to face with the blacks-will- not-go-to-heaven thing. My response is that if I end up in heaven, i know there is something wrong. You why? I have been preparing for hell all my life. I know I will do very well in hell without Lies, Deceit, and Secrecy.
Hlh
I believe that there’s something that anyone can learn from another. I’ve found that there is only one Lord only one Faith, and only one baptism. If you or I were plan unregenerated sinners and we said that Jesus died for mankind, will this be untrue because of who said it? Even Satan quoted scripture, and what he said was true. All I am saying is like my mom used to tell us, you have to treat everything like you are eating fish, eat the meat and don’t get choked on the bones.
Mandy
February 5, 2017 at 11:53 am
That’s why I’m leaving because of the people and the missionaries. I just realized that the people at the church judge you and the missionaries they really don’t help learn the gospel. So im better off going somewhere else
I believe we’re doing ourselves a disservice if we don’t at least acknowledge that the old stereotypes have a kernel of truth to them. When it comes down to it, some people leave because they don’t like the lifestyle. Many others don’t technically leave, but are inactive because they believe the church’s truth claims but can’t or won’t follow the restrictions. I would call these folks “Jack Mormons”.
I think it’s also fair to characterize some people as being offended. The key point that TBMs miss is that these folks weren’t offended by other people in their wards. They were offended by the institutional church’s actions in the past or present. For example, I wasn’t offended by anyone in my ward and I’m happy whenever I run into them. But I was very offended by the church’s actions during the Prop 8 campaign and its treatment of women and minorities, as well as by the church’s efforts to continue to prop up the Books of Mormon and Abraham as historical documents in the face of overwhelming conflicting evidence. I’m also offended by how apologists lie and obfuscate in order to try to keep people in the church. So to say I left because I was offended isn’t entirely inaccurate.
But like you, I don’t believe the old stereotypes describe anything but a very small minority of folks who choose to remove their names from the records after having been previously very active.
@Steve — Great reply and very well said. I too agree that it is not the members that are offensive, it is the SLC leadership that continues to turn a blind eye to the myriads of documented and irrefutable evidence that shows that: Joseph Smith was not really a prophet (yet the Corp of the First Presidency still likes to profit off of it); The Book of Mormon is all fiction; the Book of Abraham (and the PofGP) is a fiction, and; on and on.
Many, on this site, have commented back to me thinking that I hate the Mormon church — which, frankly is not true. I walked away from it many years ago for several reasons, the biggest one being: I had grown up and matured in my understanding and realized that all religions were based upon mysticism and had NO basis in truth; therefore, if all religions were not true, then Mormonism (which is supposedly built on early Christianity) was just as false, if not more so.
Those that try to argue any of this with me just further bolster an observation that was made by Carl Sagan, speaking of why people tenaciously stick to a belief system that has been proven to be false: “You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe.”
I am as angry about the historical cover up and whitewashing. However if the church authorities came completely clean, there would be such massive defections of members that the church would be bankrupt shortly. There would be empty temples and church meeting houses and no missionaries. Rather than push the church off a cliff, the GA’s are lowering it by rope. I am 61 and dying so it doesn’t matter that much to me except that having a faith crisis while suffering a painful death is to me an unpardonable sin committed by the only true and living church. However all the children that we raised and grandchildren will have to eventually suffer through lowering of the rope. Good is not enough for future generations to put up with all the nonsense being a member entails. It only proves to me there is no God. Which things I never would have supposed.
William
September 16, 2014 at 10:04 pm
@Lgaj — Well stated and I can relate to your anger. Nothing worse that living a good portion of your life to discover that a major part of it was devoted to a lie. Or worse, you might not have ever had personal witnesses yet, you trusted your family / parents / small Mormon community / etc…all of whom bore their witness that they “knew the church was true…” and how could THEY ALL be wrong — right? Then, to learn that the Corporation of the First Presidency (yes, the Mormon church is a corporation more than it is a church — just look at their ledger) the prophet and apostles all knew the real truth and made the choice (over PROFITS) to not reveal the true history, nor to share the truth about Joseph Smith, to cover up the truth about the Book of Mormon (that is 100% fiction) and that the Book of Abraham (P. of G.P.) was a manufactured fantasy…and on and on. Even the Joseph Smith story was changed so many times that the final version, which was also made up, was what the Corporation of the First Presidency finally approved (for missionary purposes) many years after Joseph’s death.
So yes, it is all a sad and sorry state of affairs when a religion (built upon mysticism and manufactured fraud) attempts to trick and manipulate people to further its scam to swindle peoples savings for the purpose of a few [Definition of a Scam: A confidence game or other fraudulent scheme, especially for making a quick profit; swindle].
Enjoy the fact that you have finally found the truth so that you could truly be set free.
Dwayne
January 23, 2015 at 8:19 pm
I believe in God and Christ. “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Einsteins theory of relativity states that time and space are one in the same. In the beginning was a time, the heavens and earth were the space. But, what was going on before the “beginning”. Time and space still existed, it just wasn’t our time, or our space. It is the science behind the concept of eternity. World religions discovered this long before science did. They must be given credit for it. One day man will have a cure for all disease and the ability to abstract DNA from cadavers and recreate life from what was once dead. If this is the criteria to become God, then some, if not all me will become Gods to one degree or the other. As far as commenting on the Mormon question. I will only say that I am deeply saddened by the thousands who have been excommunicated for committing far less sins that Joseph Smith himself, and believe they have no chance of celestial glory, short of being re-baptized. No 3 men,1 or 2 of which will become inactive within 3 years could ever yield such power. If the truth is Anti-Mormon, maybe Mormonism is Anti-Truth. Just a thought.
An inactive Mormon
carlos
January 24, 2015 at 2:48 pm
The mormon church is all about money, they make every year 7 billions dollars. They should give at lease 50 millions to St jude hospital for
children with cancer, but no they rather spend money on malls, investment, ranching and god knows what. Also, I hate the mormons because
most of them belong to the kkk organization. They love money. Bottom line is that they are a colt. They are sick puppies and are gays.
Dwayne
January 27, 2015 at 4:18 pm
KKK………..KKK…………KKK………..KKK…………KKK…………I heard the leaders of the wonderful brotherhood of KKK members have master keys to every temple in the world, and use them to have gay sex. Hahahahah………………what a weirdo
my wife konnie believes all there bull shit,,her dad left but she still believes.wants to give all our money to the cult..not me I quit going screw them lieing bastards
Klaus
January 19, 2016 at 9:09 pm
Or maybe they received a witness from the Holy Ghost that it is true. And have received it in sacred ways that they cannot deny. I don’t think you can fully comprehend divine truth without the witness of the Holy Ghost. When left to your own intellect, it’s very easy to intellectualize yourself away from truth. In most cases the things of God cannot be proven through the ways of the world or the natural man. But that does not mean they don’t exist. I for one know that you have no proof whatsoever that the Book of Mormon is fiction. nor could you ever produce any. But there’s no getting through to someone like you who is so bitter against the church, for whatever reason, that you refuse to acknowledge a higher power greater than your own. Pitiful. One thing you can be sure of though, god still loves you, not because of who or what you are, but because who and what he is. And unconditionally loving father.
William
January 19, 2016 at 10:07 pm
@Klaus — Just wondering if you noticed the site name of this blog? If not, then for your information, it is called: Why Mormons Leave! You should consider that prior to responding again.
Anyway, I appreciate your response since it goes right to the top of the list of myriads of other examples of willful ignorance. Your irrational justifications are similar to those of the person described in the story by Carl Sagan titled: The Dragon In My Garage…to which in his final observation he states: “…to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.”
Hopefully you will wake up (some day) from the mystical delusion you call religion and that you will be able to finally enjoy your life, the way life should be enjoyed; that being a life of reality, not one of living in a fairytale.
There is ample proof the Book of Mormon is fiction.
Witnesses have given estimates of the size of “book” kept under covers and of its weight.
Emma Hale Smith, JS’s wife, used to move it around when doing her cleaning.
If an average of the sizes quoted for the “book” is taken and a calculation done assuming the “book” was really on gold plates, its weight would be round about 200 lbs.. The estimate of the witness(es) was 50 lbs. No body would make this mistake. Imagine Emma moving 200 lbs around to do her dusting!!??
JS did not translate from the gold plates. Sometimes the “book” was not even in the same room when JS had a seer stone in a hat as he dictated to Oliver Cowdery!
2 Nephi 31:21 has a very precise statement of the doctrine of the Trinity. The LDS rejects the Trinity believing there can be three Almighty Gods! If one God is all mighty, the other two can’t be, can they?
Two missionaries said, “Even if you prove that the Book of Mormon is wrong and Joseph Smith is wrong, we’d still belong the the church.”
And there you have it, the church is a very comfortable, and no doubt pleasant, place to be … provided you don’t critically examine the beliefs. It does help folk to live good lives at the human level, but it is missing one important element:
Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life and He promised: the truth will make you free.
That the Book of Mormon is a plagiarized (much from the KJV!) fiction concocted by JS, with his brilliant imagination, and Oliver Cowdery … is just one such truth that could free you.
There are lots of others. For example, JS claimed a “Personage” told him in a vision that the creeds of all (other religions) are an abomination. If one goes through the widely used Apostle’s Creed verse by verse, one can see that each verse is backed up by, sometimes many, verses directly from the Bible. The Apostle’s Creed is completely Biblical – so the “Personage” who would consider this creed to be an abomination would be …. Satan, no?
globalgoldira
September 2, 2014 at 6:07 am
Pisherratt, thanks. It helps. Last night missionaries came by and stayed for over 3 hours. We didn’t do any lessons, just sat around talking and having a great time, talking of our experiences, they saw photos of my family, and told me to stay with the same ward. I am. Did they just do that because they wanted to do it, or because the church found out I’m unhappy with some stuff, and they were TOLD to do it.Thank you so much. But I have to know the ins and outs of this place.
I left when I found out there were no golden plates.that joe was a lier a sex pervert.that he never talked to god..there is no marrage in heaven..the lds temples are money machines..you got byo pay to use them..wear there freaking hooolly under wear that aint worth a shit..there holly priest hood I a bunch of shit it don’t work ever..just more dam lies..take take the sack of your head so ypou can see the truth,,not just there dazm lies…john dahlem did and he saw the truth lust like the 2 steak presidents in England did..its the biggest dam lie iver
your one of the head in a sack Mormons with no brains..you believe what ever the cult tells you.your so freaking dumb,just spread your legs so they can make more just like you..moron mormon
Why?
March 6, 2017 at 7:13 pm
@rose harris
Why do you think this? That is nothing like the church, you have obviously never been. Learn English.
???????????????????????????????????….did you research enough?………..not only mormon churches want the money….all of the other churches like catholic ,christians,greek churches and more got money from the members..you moron!
James didn’t say it was the only reason; he simply said it should be on the list. I know many people who were excommunicated and begged to not be! He’s right to say it belongs on the list. Your lengthy rebuttal to his point was ridiculous. Oh, and heaven forbid that anyone who left the Mormon Church could have been stupid!
How original. How many people do you know that were willing to give up a place in the celestial kingdom because somebody offended them? What you are claiming is that somebody that still believed would be so short sighted as to leave up all hope of an eternal family simply over hurt feelings. The reason it wasn’t included is because it’s never the reason.
I just read over 200 reasons why people have left the church and almost every one of them infer that they were indeed offended by a bishop, the bretheren, etc. I myself was once in a position where my own sins kept me away and I became paranoid that I was being judged by everyone and I started to question things as a way to justify my behavior, which was inconsistent with any Christian teachings. I had lost the spirit, and that is what happens. I came back, but if I would have left, I know I would not have attributed it to my sins or the loss of the spirit, but rather something else, and I would have probably honestly believed it too.
Your last statement is almost certainly categorical, and you almost certainly use slanted language throughout the reply. Your reply is not valid from a Critical thinkers standpoint, thus giving you almost no credibility.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life,” – It’s so sad that the majority of Mormons misunderstand that eternal life if a gift guaranteed for ALL that believe in Him- Clearly a misinformed, misguided, misdirected church that thankfully I no longer am a part of! And just to make it very clear – I left Mormonism of my own free will because after 43 years I realized that I could not relate to the LDS people or culture. And God still loves me and blesses my life. In fact my life is 100% improved since leaving Mormonism over 6 years ago. Knowing what I know now I wish I would have had the courage to leave sooner !
I agree that the ball starts rolling for many people with a disagreement or offense. Most if not all members see the LDS church as representing Jesus, therefore, they conclude it is unconditionally loving. If a member makes a mistake of a large enough magnitude to be brought before a bishop and start an official repentance process, it many times opens the door for questioning the church. Members are treated so abusively in this process, it is unsettling, so it starts them searching. None of us see ourselves as having it ever happen to us, its the other guy. I watched a friend literally raked over the coals in a “court of love”, which is pretty much abuse with a smile on its face. Not all offense has to be this severe, just having two members disagree over inspiration on how to proceed in a calling can be enough to get people Googling. I watched a YW president and a bishop in a pissing contest over a BOM challenge. He was able to pull rank on her and trump her inspiration because his was higher in position. The offense can be the initial reason for leaving, but after a few moments on the computer, the reason for leaving becomes based on more substantial reasons.
This is absolutely a valid point. My brother, who was excommunicated for adultery has no interest or intention of ever returning to the church, but he rebuked me for denouncing the truth claims of the gospel. He absolutely believes Joseph Smith was a prophet, he just doesn’t see the value of returning to the church.
This is a a rarity – if it’s even true! Is he really staying out of the church so he can be an adulterer? I seriously doubt he is honest about his reason –
I joined the Mormon church 6 months ago. Was baptized and all the fixings. I began to really dig the folks at our ward. They were all nice, open to me and were friendly. Things have so changed. I am in the church and feel good about that, but now I feel I’m being shunned by them. Many women that once spoke to me no longer look my way in church. One woman and her husband have started shunning me, and the other day i go in and the person that gives them a ride said they were not in church. Then later I saw them. The wife saw me and ran up to me and said, “Oh, are you hiding?” I explained I was not, and walked with her to Sunday school. Get in there, and she seemed the only one that was going to sit with me. She whispered in my ear as we began to listen, “Murmuring? murmuring!?” I whispered back “Shunning me, don’t talk about me, no shunning, no murmuring”. But she was kidding, I was not. And she is not a well woman but no one told me. So now I find myself sitting isolated from them, sitting alone in one long pew. Why are they doing it when I pay my tidings, more than I’m supposed to, come to church, read the Book of Mormon and show them I care and respect them and god. What’s the problem. Why won’t they talk to me or want to be my friend? What did I do wrong. I am 50 years old, female, married (non Mormon man), live well, am not crazy, but a bit over the top at times in a good way. I am over joyous. Do you suppose they think I want to be there because they can do something for me? I want to have a better relationship with God, so I find myself being shunned, I can feel it. Am I wrong? Help?
I don’t know what you have been smoking. Obviously, you are not too enlightened. You don’t need to try too impress all those other morons to have a relationship with God. Who cares what the hell they think. What matters is you and God. Live your life the best way you can and always believe and have faith. God helps those who try to help themselves. Eventually things will start to turn your way, believe me, having faith can be a “pain in the ass”. Finally, I just said, “God I am yours”, “Do with me what you want”. My life turned around, I don’t know how it works, but it does.
This shunning I felt had nothing to do with God, the church doctrines or the church of LDS. It had to do with the ward I was in, it was not the right one for me. I am closer to god because I was baptized the right way, in the Mormon way, I wanted to be part of it, but because I embraced BOOK OF ABRAHAM and could really read more into it than anyone in that ward of actors, producers and snot head Relief society women! They got so scared. One woman took me aside after hearing me talking about the symbols in Book of Abraham, which was God talking to me. I use Book of Abraham to get closer to God, he speaks to me through that doctrine! I love god and feel so much closer, and have kept a notebook called “LETTERS TO AND FOR GOD” and everything I’ve written in there has come true thru God. I learned earlier on in that ward how to pray to God and get what I want out of him. He in turn gets a lot out of me now too. I am studying alone, do not go to church. The Relief Society disliked me. Some of the women thought I was a bit of a ROGUE, but they were afraid I’d know more than they did. They were afraid of me. They all started to shun me, not everyone, but the important ones. Also, a girl kept coming up to me and saying “The Congregation doesn’t get you and they never will!” So i knew then. And when I went to get involved in meetings and activities I noticed it the most. My own visiting teacher shunned me as well as people I thought liked me. They moved away from me, one old woman said she was so jealous of me because I could read the scriptures and know more than most do, underlining the parts that pertained to me. She loved how I did it. I can read and get answers from God himself, and Jesus. I plan to publish my book about going through the process of being inducted, baptized, went to Mormon temple, and paid my tidings, etc, and how things declined, and through it all my relationship with God increased. He does speak to me in my subconscious mind, I feel him in my life more than ever, like he never left, and he didn’t. But I will NEVER go back to that ward, but am looking for a new one, and studying on my own. What saved me and showed me that the shunning was going on was “DOCTRINE & COVENANTS PEARL OF GREAT PRICE”. I read it every day and have learned so much more than even Joseph Smith knew. Lots of his notes on the Egyptian drawings Abraham drew were WRONG, or off, he was on the right track, but I filled in the blanks and spoke in great length with the Bishop, my teacher, some in the congregation and of course the missionaries. I learned that missionaries and elders are not cracked up to what I perceived them to be. I was hurt and ran away from the ward, not the LDS church. I love being Mormon, and one day I will find my place. In the meantime, I am close to God because of D/C’s Pearl of Great Price. I have learned much about myself through that book. I love it. Thanks for your interest. I will find my way back in.
Thanks for your interest. I will find my way back in.
Don’t be too sure.
The truth will make you free – Jesus’ promise – and the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price and the D & C are not the truth. You could do the research!
Start off with D & C 132 which threatens Emma Hale Smith that she will be “destroyed” if she doesn’t go along with Joseph Smith’s promiscuity … at least 34 “wives”, 11 already married.
The Christian God would never say anything like that.
What you could do is read a Chapter of the New Testament each day …. that will bring you love, peace and joy.
Bryce White
January 20, 2018 at 11:44 pm
Your faith is between you and your Eternal Father. In my life, I have tried to commit to always do what is right even if those closest to me disappoint me. I believe the Savior also went through this when he was betrayed in one of the worst ways by someone very close to him. I have found that when I am outgoing and friendly, I attract those who treat me the same way. I hope that you can find those with whom you can surround yourself that see you as your Heavenly Father sees you. I can see the desires of your heart, so I know that others will too.
“wouldn’t you also have to include the fact that some people leave because they just lose interest”
9. c. “…Experienced church as boring, mind-numbing, waste of time and energy, draining, uninspiring.”
16. a. “Lost interest in Mormonism/church activity (i.e., apathy) ”
“commit adultery”
16. b. “Broke a minor or major “commandment” and experienced debilitating guilt/grief and/or had a bad experience with membership and/or leadership, and decided subsequently to disaffiliate.”
It’s not that I have lost interest. I have changed in a good way. But, the congregation doesn’t seem to like me. That’s it. Not bored, not losing interest, even closer to god than I ever have been. I want to be part of more activities but I have a condition that prevents me from having a normal life sometimes, and that cuts into my church activities. I don’t like to miss church, I thrive. It’s that the people in that place don’t seem to dig me enough to call me up. I am working still with the Missionaries, they are cool. i’m still feeding them once a month, trying to get more involved, I have an ailment that prevents me to having a normal everyday life, just pieces of normalcy, and mostly that is in church. I wish they’d just like me, I like them and I love being Mormon. Thanks.
THE MORMON CHURCH IS FAKE RELIGION. ALL THEY WANT IS THE 10% TIES AND ALSO, I THINK MEN ARE SICK PUPPIES.
THE MORMON CHURCH MAKES 7 BILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR, TELL ME IF THIS IS NOT FOR THE MONEY. WHEN WERE
THE BROWN SKIN AND BLACKS ADMITTED TO THE CHURCH?
@ carlos mason — It has always been about the money! However, Joe Smith did not restrict or discriminate against skin color and allowed all to join. When Joe was running the church he allowed black men to hold the priesthood; however, after his death and the Mormons relocated to what is now known as Salt Lake City, that was when the real bigoted attitudes of the new leadership became obvious. All black men were censured from any priesthood activity and new black members were not allowed any positions…baptism was the only thing allowed for black people. It was not until the 1960’s & 1970’s when the financial impact became obvious that the then president, Spence Kimball, claims to have been inspired to once again allow black members full embrace of all the same things as the white members.
When anyone looks at the over-all wealth of the LDS church and the corporate nature of the leadership, it becomes quite obvious it is about money. Of course, to the lowly members, they all think it is about love, Jesus, apple pie and all other “good news” things and they have no realization or understanding of the true nature of this or any other religion….all of which has nothing to do with god or salvation!
I FEEL every needs to Doctrines & Covenants Pearl of Great Price, and see for yourself that there is a picture of the great circle with all Egyptian writing and figures on it, but it you look closer you see the whole story of Jesus Christ and I believe there IS A GOD and A JESUS. Sorry we can’t come to terms with it. I may have messed up with the Mormons, but I know God and Jesus are there for me, because I pray hard and get results. I may not be a Molly Mormon, and folks may not take to me because of my offbeat ways, then I turn to God and Jesus and they comfort me FAKE RELIGION OR NOT, I feel something, I felt something with LDS, I still feel it. I God and Jesus are not sitting up there as men, but as energy and spiritual essences, because mankind does not know how to totally control mankind. That’s why D/C is VEILED, so the naysayers and fakes and enemies of the Church and God won’t dampen the message. I say LDS may not be totally right for me, and I am no Molly Mormon, but Doctrines & Covenants Pearl of Great Price has saved my frickin’ life and has brought me so much closer to what God and Jesus are and represent. So the rants of no God or Jesus on this site shows us there are many sad people and the can’t be part of the social religion. ME???? I am an oddball person and that is why I didn’t fit in and they shunned me in two wards. I had to get away from them, and I did. But I am still with the church and care about being with LDS, and have more of a belief in God and Jesus, and pray and ask them to help me all the time! It was not all for nothing.
What a terrible thing to suggest. Mormons do not hurt or kill people nor do they force anyone to join their church or do anything to anyone if they decide to not attend or leave their church. To suggest we kill anyone who chooses to live their religion, just because you may not agree is sick. You are at the height of bigotry and intolerance, it is calling the kettle black. Mormons do not hate gays. On the contrary, they believe they are God”s children and should receive love and respect.Many religions have the same directions concerning the gay community but are not so welcoming as the Mormons.If you read a little and become educated on the subject, you will find many faiths believe the gays should be killed. I have gay friends who are among the most kind, generous and talented people I know.They are not mormons but are treated badly by people on the street and at work that has nothing to do with religion.. Some are treated the worst by their own parents. Looking at the mormons as part of their problem is neither fair or accurate.
I agree with you 1000 per cent ..all Mormon books are false just like the church and the leaders…its about money for 15 old horny men to enjoy not working and traveling the world and I just hope isis comes to genral conference with bombs and guns and let the Mormon blood flow thew the streets
I’ve been reading so much about how folks who left the church said it was fake, Joseph Smith was a sex maniac, yada yada! REMEMBER this, I feel that the religion end of Mormon is the key to understanding God and Jesus. As for the folks in the church, SUCKVILLE! I saw them for what they really were, and the missionaries and Elders. When I first started, I thought they were so holy and good, but I was wrong, and I found out that a lot of Mormon kids are mentally sick with Bipolar, Austism and a host of other mental disorders. I’d see the couples and kids and folks only in the church and wondered why none of them ever called and invited me over to eat or get a lift to church. Little by little I started to realize it;s not about them, it’s about GOD AND JESUS. Those two are NOT fake, NOT SEX manics etc. And Joseph Smith was just a vehicle to get the message to folks like normal us, who thought being Mormon and hanging with Mormons was something else, but it’s all veiled by God so we can learn slowly about people, scriptures and faith. I tried two wards and both said, “Oh, the congregation doesn’t get you!” They shunned me, etc. I stopped going to church after I did 3 events and saw the truth in the PEOPLE, not the religion. I have gotten so much closer to god and Jesus, but the congregations, NO WAY, no one ever calls, inquires or asks what’s up. I told my visiting teacher we were going to cool it, and he has not called to see about me one time since. So I know what’s up. I love DOCTRINE & COVENANTS PEARL OF GREAT PRICE because it has helped me understand why the congregations shunned me, murmured against me and other such crapola. I use the doctrine, not the congregation. I never go to church anymore, who wants to pray and take sacrament with folks that are not real, it’s them, not the religion, I didn’t TECHNICALLY leave the church, just the congregation, I JUST DON’T GET THEM!
It does . My Mother grew up in Idaho and was a very True Believer in Christ and in the LDS Church . She wanted her children to know everything she could teach us about her being a Mormon and hoping someday that we (Her Kids) would get involved and attend LDS Churches wherever we were as adults also , but my Father was raised in Presbyterian Church and had a big influence on my other siblings so they didnt listen as much as I did to my Moms stories and now at 47 years old I really have a strong desire in my Heart to finally become a member and for the first time get Babtized as a Mormon, with the LDS Church. My Grandparents were born and raised Mormon and thier parents as far back as My Mom knew . Never a bad word about her upbringing and such good Family Values she was taught from the LDS Church growing up Mormon and I want to follow in my Family from my Moms side now with the LDS Church as a Mormon. DJ Karnes .
I agreed 100% James..People leave the church because the devil finally win them over to commit to the world of sin Those interested in the signs of the end times often take note of a warning given by Paul to the Thessalonians, speaking about the return of Jesus Christ to earth. He writes, “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first” (2 Thessalonians
I think with most it is a combination of many things, although the cascade made be triggered by just one thing. That’s a pretty comprehensive list, I’d say.
I’d be curious about any possible differences among the people who leave for different reasons. E.g., is it more or less damaging to leave largely for historical reasons vs. spiritual reasons? Etc.
Hi, Adam. Personally I left for quite a lot of the reasons above, but, yes, coming to know that Joseph Smith Jr. was just a lying sociopath who had nothing “revelatory” to offer really hurt the most. As some mentioned, if this church were indeed founded upon spiritual truths, one might stay in spite of some of the other problems.
Micah – Is this at all better? “Rejection of the doctrine of eternal families, which some experience as actually de-unifying families in this life, or unfairly and unnecessarily creating fear about the separation of families in the afterlife – often through coercive means.”
Yes. It is pretty well-understood that President Monson has either Alzheimer’s or dementia. I’ve heard this through numerous sources myself….though have no first-hand knowledge in this regard.
I’d heard those rumors back around the time the papal shift occurred in the Catholic Church. For someone supposedly so impaired, President Monson’s done a great job in meetings.
It is now time overdue for change of leadership in the church.I am sorry to have to say this and it will upset some people but it needs to happen soon.Utorph in the obvious choice.He is visionary and he is a problem solver.Thats the person you need to have the leadership of thechurch.Dont deny the church this person who would bring the church forward with his strength and ability.
The LDS church will NEVER accept any homosexuality. And more will be hurt from it. I know some church members in a LDS ward don’t judge a non active lifestyle homosexual. BUT still people do! Depression hits in when judged so much by the people in the ward, the bishop and ect. up. I’m so scared to go back. That it could lead to my death.
Wow. That’s a pretty comprehensive list. All of those things apply to me to some degree, but initially it was that nagging feeling that either I was wrong at my core, or the Church wasn’t everything it had presented itself to be. It was finding the courage to take off the rose colored glasses and objectively examine things that lead to a complete collapse of my faith. Then all that other stuff you listed became real issues for me…
Katie, you must have been reading my mail! In my case I just had enough of feeling that not only did I not measure up by the LDS Church’s yardstick, I felt suffocated by its dogma and demands. The world is a wondrous place, and I was not allowed to associated with people who were not Mormon
I have been a member all of my life and I have had , and continue to have many non member friends. If someone tells you that you cannot have non member friends they are out of line. On the contrary , we are encouraged to be loving and kind and friends with all of whom we associate. Mormons are very busy in their church activity and are often misunderstood because they are often not as social outside their ward boundaries, even with other Mormons.
Very good. I’d suggest adding some reasons relating to succession problems. Why Brigham, instead of one of the others? Did Wilford Woodruff lead the church astray?
Wilford Woodruff was actually the prophet that caused my shelf to collapse. In reading Pure Mormonism: Wilford Woodruff’s pants are on Fire, I finally understood that the leaders of the LDS church rely on manipulation and hero worship to create the environment where leaders are put on the same playing field as God. WW lied about the founding father’s of the United States of America not having their temple work done previously. Since they had had their work done many times over in previous temples he lied about his vision of them. Since he lied about his vision of them he was a false prophet. Scary realization. I had never like Brigham Young, but I was willing to step over the mess he made by allowing myself to believe that only Brigham could have led the saints to Utah, but when I realized that even the accounts of people seeing him “look like Joseph” were all created post the event that belief collapsed too. So Yes, Willford Woodruff led the church astray.
A fairly common narrative members make who have *returned* to activity is that they “always knew the church was true,” even while they weren’t participating, but for one reason or another (friends, alcohol, wanted different path, other Sunday activities, etc.), they disassociated with the church for a period.
One of our HP instructors finds a way to mention his “30 years away” — from age 29 to 59 — almost every time he teaches the lesson. He’s just one among dozens that I’ve heard over the years, but he attributes it to “not committing any major sin, but just losing sight of my priorities and what matters.”
I think you should put some Mormon films on there like “Saturday’s Warrior” ‘Sing;e’s Ward” and that one where the old lady checks her friggin mailbox everyday and never gets a letter and the day she finally gets a letter she DIES! And the letter was from her crappy kids telling her they were going to put her in a home! In fact put that one at the top of the list.
The reasons you are citing are reasons why people go inactive. This list is why people stop believing. Those that commit adultery and leave the church do not necessarily stop believing that it is true…
hi John- disregard this if i missed it but in the ‘experienced-based’ reasons i would add ‘lost testimony after they were disfellowshipped’. (i.e. what i am going through/have been through for the past year or so.) great work!
There are a few things I don’t see here. Maybe they are included in some of your other points.
1) Bribery. Especially in the early Utah days and in the years when the church was fighting the U.S. over polygamy. Abraham H. Cannon diary accounts of bribing politicians, a supreme court judge, a marshal. Accounts of bribing an aid to the president. Rumors of present-day bribes to further pioneering missionary work in foreign countries.
2) Learning there were several significant changes in the temple ceremony after being told the endowment was established with Adam and has always existed in its perfect form whenever God’s church has been on the earth.
3) Unease/disbelief of extreme parts of the temple ceremony that have since been removed (in what was said as well as some disturbing aspects of the rituals and clothing that have been changed).
4) Temple recommend interviews as tests of faith. Major commandments left out of the interview while a couple specifics like tithing and word of wisdom are disproportionately emphasized.
5) Undo influence of church over government in Utah (This was probably covered under your separation of church and state point).
I think this one points out one the church actually worries about: too much change. It’s definitely not mine (I think there is too little progress). But too much change or too quick change does cause some to leave, particularly if they are sold on the status quo or feel that it erodes trust in prophetic leadership for them.
Have you considered how folks with ego and control driven personalities may view Mormonism? A big part of religion especially Mormonism is to focus on a spiritual relationship with God and to exercise faith in Him. To allow this and the atonement to work in one’s life one must let go of being in control and let God guide one through the plan. The focus then becomes on others rather than oneself. This is commonly referred to as humility which many ego and control driven personalities struggle with. Thoughts?
This is just a creatively worded “they left because they wanted to sin, or got offended” narrative. It defines “humility” as “doing the stuff the church tells you to” and implies that people who leave the church are therefore “prideful.” The reason that “wanted to sin” and “got offended,” aren’t listed is because they are almost never the reasons people leave the church.
Jerry, people with ego and control driven personalities–ie. narcissistic personality disorder–either delight in striving for control and leadership positions within the church by presenting their false fronts as humble and spiritual in order to manipulate others; or else they reject religion altogether because they are, in fact, gods unto themselves. Virtually everyone in every walk of life who has a position of high leadership or control is a narcissist, religious or not. By definition, a narcissist is incapable of empathy or spirituality. It is all an act.
Good list. I think the next step is to look at the compound process of leaving and how it can be misinterpreted as being based on events when it should be centered around cognitive processes.
For example, an anonymous case:
1- committed adultery
2- wife committed mutual adultery
3- was excommunicated (wife remained in good standing)
4- was rebaptized
5- lost faith in Church for cultural/historical reasons
6- was distanced from family due to other longstanding conflicts aggravated by stressful situation
7- subsequently divorced
Believers will probably point to #1 and #2 as the grand overarching cause, despite the repentance and rebaptism process. For him, #5 was the big reason to leave the Church, and #5 reflected the events of the time. #5 is the only reason really based on cognitive reasoning, no matter how much that reasoning was affected by upheaval around him.
I would love to have a discussion with you about the anger in the disabled community about the church and why they are leaving in droves. This doesn’t seem to be covered above.
Then this tells us you are not disabled. I am happy for you that you are not. I am, as a result of military service. I can tell you that as a disabled veteran life was very difficult. while I did receive some help from the church and the brethren…their major difficulty was the need for long term assistance. All the preaching from the pulpit that is done about self sufficiency does not change the fact that we are still disabled. You can’t work , you have applied for disability, you need assistance till your disability comes in. That can take awhile. Also in the state where I live you are denied the first go around anyhow. Only state in the nation that has an automatic first application denial. I and my son have been left homeless and wanting so many times it isn’t funny. Female veterans make up the fastest growing segment of the total homeless population. About 60 thousand and growing. Suicides are on the rise..post 9/11 veteran unemployment rate is 16.2 %. My ward had helped but shun me for being a poor disabled veteran. Bishop hasn’t called. No home teacher in 6 months. Sometimes I get a visiting teaching letter, lots of times I don’t. Haven’t gotten a call or visit from anyone in my ward since my last homeless gig in winter of 2015. Nothing…..expected to sleep on the same streets we soldiers swore to defend. Paying the price for freedom in blood, sweat and tears…giving mind, body and soul in service….to be rewarded with lonlieness, pain and poverty.
Did you ever see a letter from a local bishop telling a member and whomever else it might concern that no help from the church would be rendered? I have…its in my membership file. Let me tell you…as a disabled veteran…that made my day now didn’t it.
I agree Kelly. My sister in law has mental illness and her membership and roll in the church has come with so much pain that most the time she is inactive. I believe the feelings are similar to the gay communities. If you just pray and are faithful you will over come your illness. The voices you here are Satan trying to tempt you. Oh but don’t worry God is just testing you in this life and if you just survive this misery you will be rewarded in heaven. Let’s not even talk about the abysmal amount of training or no training that leaders have to deal with these issues.It makes it very difficult for these people to find a home in this gospel and even harder to stay if they do.
It is very difficult for ANYONE with a mental illness to survive and thrive anywhere in the U.S. -even in this day and age. Americans and Mormons and atheists and Presbyterians and Catholics and and and… should be educated about mental illnesses. One in four of us experience mental illness…perhaps more. As a mental health nurse, I find it appalling that any of us could be so ignorant : school principals,teachers,M.D.s, PhD psych candidates, etc Spend some time in mainland China to see how the mentally ill are treated (not) and stigmatized.If you are taking a psych med you will not be let into the country. Ignorance is everywhere. EDUCATE instead of whining about these incidents. Be courageous. There is enough misery to go around without blaming a group of religious folk, most of whom are just trying to do their best.
Excellent point, Natalie. Not only do the leaders not have training, in some cases they will resist or thwart efforts of other ward members if it could expose the church to liability. I have a severely disabled son who is medically fragile and technology dependent. When my wife and I were having a difficult time obtaining respite care from government sources, some other ward members offered to be trained in how to care for him so my wife and I could go on dates or otherwise leave the house. When our bishop found out about it, he put the kibosh on it so fast it made our heads spin. He said that we could use tithing funds to hire a nurse, but that we couldn’t ask for or accept help from any other members of the ward.
Our son is now a teenager, and it’s only become more and more obvious how the church is not set up to help kids like him. Our deacon’s quorum adviser has asked if we’d be okay with him going to deacon’s quorum, but has balked at the idea of my wife or I being there to supervise, and the bishop won’t allow the adviser or other members to be trained on how to care for him. Scout camps are a complete joke as far as wheelchair access. Also, our aging church facilities are horribly substandard for dealing with incontinence issues. The handicap stall in the men’s room isn’t nearly large enough to accommodate my son’s wheelchair and provide room for me to lay him on the floor to change his diapers. I’ve noticed that some newer chapels in the area do a better job of this, but for some reason the church seems unable to remodel the bathrooms in our old chapel to make the handicap stalls wider or longer.
I left the church because the tithings was way to high for me to pay. They have was to many rules to follow. God doesn’t like homosexual, this is why homosexual, and gays aren’t aloud in the church. Read your scriptures of Genius.
Agree wholeheartedly. I know Natasha Helfer-Parker started doing a series of podcasts on people with mental health issues, but I don’t think the experience of someone who was either disabled themselves from birth or was raising a disabled child was adequately covered, and I’m speaking as someone who’s in both situations.
I would add a few points (that may be somewhat covered by items already in the list, but are pretty important and distinct concepts in Mormonism):
To “Cultural Reasons / Cult-like characteristics”:
– obedience to leaders and the institutional church is often equated with obedience to a god
– criticism (especially public criticism) of the institutional church and its leaders is condemned
– teaching that some truths aren’t useful
To “Doctrinal Reasons”(?):
– rejecting Jesus’ New Testament teachings and embracing the pharisees’ New Testament positions (prophylactic rules are good, obedience without understanding is good per se rather than interpreting and using religious laws to achieve good, etc.)
John – What is the percentage breakdown of why folks leave? Curious to know how the comprehensive list is broken down. This would give a bit more insight and credibility to the list.
This may be outside the scope of your research, but I would love to see a study on current attenders. What percentage are TBM, what percentage are cafeteria Mormons, what percentage are sitting in Sacrament meeting plotting their exit strategy, etc.
Kelly’s right about the disabled, and there should also be something about all types of people who don’t fit the “ideal”: divorced, single, mixed faith marriage, and so on for whom the touted ideals simply make them feel ostracized.
Here’s a recap:
– Self. This geography includes things like your own sense of spirituality, relationship to God, and your own comfort with yourself. It can also be impacted by personal issues like depression or mental illness or even simple lack of confidence or uncertainty about your own views.
– Direct Family. This includes your marriage (if married) and children (if you have any) or those family members with whom you live or if there are some you see on a weekly basis. How comfortable do you feel within this sphere in being yourself, expressing your feelings and being accepted for who you are and what you believe?
– Extended Family. These are the people you see at reunions and funerals or monthly (or less frequent) dinners. How safe do you feel being open in this group? How accepted do you feel? Often our families (in which we were raised) have colored our understanding of religion to the point that it trumps the church’s actual teachings.
– Local ward / stake. Do you have friends in this group who accept you and listen to your views without judgment? Do you feel OK expressing your honest views in this group? What is your level of discomfort? Do local policies and leaders create an environment that is uplifting to you?
– Organizational church. Do you feel that church leaders are good people? Do church policies feel comfortable to you, like they are Christ-like and postive? Does the organizational church feel moral and uplifting to you? If it is mixed, how important are the negatives and positives relatively? Are there supportive people closer to you (at the local ward, stake, or family levels) who feel similarly or with whom you can talk about your disagreement and feel accepted? Does the church provide a unique benefit to you that you can’t get anywhere else?
– History. Do statements or policies of past church leaders make you feel disconnected? Do you feel past leaders were immoral or not acting in good faith or do you believe they were moral actors? Do you have concerns about historical issues that the church hasn’t disavowed or addressed or about those the church has addressed?
These are more about levels of comfort in these areas, but lack of feeling safe can create or foster disaffection.
I agree with Angela, John. I recognized my experience in many places on this quite exhaustive list, but the most compelling personal reason for me to leave seemed to be missing on the list (i.e.being single / not fitting the Mormon ideal of being married with a family). That invisible, living on the margins or even “left out” is exactly how I felt as a single, never married person in the church. So I suppose it doesn’t surprise me that we’re kind of missing on this list too. eek! Some single, middle-aged and older adults in the church experience living on an “island of misfits.” Often, nobody knew what, really to do with us or say to us, except to pity the single, never married women and berate the single, never married men. Of course, mostly we are assumed to feel included and loved, and of course, we are/were in one sense. But in another sense, I just never “fit in” or had as much in common with people who are married with children at church. Got very tired of feeling the sting of that every week and the sexual dilemmas posed by what would have had to be lifelong chastity. Had to leave. Other single people stay and don’t seem to have as much problem with it. I think they must have had to numb themselves to their actual experience, or they chose it very powerfully and happily. Not me. 🙂
I’d like to add something- I have not left but I’m currently dealing with the backlash of privately sharing my concerns with the bishop. I think why it’s easy to classify those who leave as “offended” is because the local church leaders are untrained in dealing with these members and they often are quick to use fear, not love when approached for help. If you go to talk to a bishop about your questions you’ll be asked to put them on the shelf but in exchanged YOU will be questioned week after week.” Where did you learn about the different vision accounts, book of Abraham etc- were you using anti mormon sites? Your children deserve a mother with a strong testimony.” I’m told not to throw the baby out with the bath water. “There’s more good than bad” in the church but because I questioned I’m now labeled as “struggling” and viewed as member who is more bad then good. You become the ward project. And get called into the principles office regularly to evaluate “where are you at with your doubts.” And that becomes offensive.
I think this is an enormous undertaking. Good on you John. There are so many subcultures in this group though. Will you break it down in demographics for lack of a better word. Such as, those who identify as liberals, disabled or mental illness, homosexual communities, intellectuals, those with money, those without. They might all leave because of history let’s say but their reasoning behind it comes from completely different places. Or is that too narrow and we are looking at the broader picture. This is all completely fascinating to me. No wonder psych 101 was one of my favorite classes. If you need any grunt work done let me know. I was a research assistant at BYU and love the hunt!
Yikes. No wonder my “shelf” came crashing down recently. I never realized how many items were on it.
This isn’t a reason I left, but it was something that really bothered me when I was active. It’s a compilation of a few of the items already listed…I hope my explanation makes sense. I always felt like one of the main tenets of our religion was we were supposed to be Christlike in our love and service towards our fellow men. That we should have charity and compassion for those who are less fortunate than us, and share what we have with others. (Law of consecration?) Yet any time ANY kind of government assistance to the poor was brought up, it was met with judgement, scorn, criticism, etc. Church welfare? Amen, brothers and sisters. State welfare? PURE EVIL. It felt wrong to me that we will only help our own membership, and many, if not most, members oppose the government giving the same help to it’s citizens. (I know, I know, the church welfare makes it’s members work for the assistance. It also depends on the rest of the membership volunteering their time to make the program work.)
I was also frustrated by the church’s attitude of “serve ourselves.” When I was a member of the YW and RS presidencies, we would try to come up with service projects. I ALWAYS suggested we look for ways to serve in the community – at homeless shelters, senior citizen centers, Meals of Wheels, the schools, etc. My suggestions were regularly shut down in favor of serving the LDS community. One time the stake leadership chose going to the cannery and dry pack canning for members of the ward (who were all able to do it for themselves) over delivering meals to homebound senior citizens.
Can’t wait to read more of your work, John. Thank you for having the courage to tackle these issues.
A friend of mine left while at BYU because she claims she couldn’t handle the hypocricity of relief society leaders bashing Obama in one lesson and then instructing her how to apply for food stamps and have a baby on medicaid two minutes later.
I would add (I didn’t see it but maybe missed it) the perpetuation of shady stuff like not putting dates on essays so they can be changed, changing talks and website info without listing that it has been revised leading people to wonder if they are crazy, buying up Hoffman forgeries.
This is somewhat covered in the list in multiple points, but sometimes people’s life experience out in the world tells them something completely different from what they are told about the world in church. For many people, first hand experience trumps word of mouth and the more experiences that contradict church teachings, the more we disassociate from Mormonism.
I think the church is aware of this because they try and limit experiences “out in the world” when people are young- i.e. send them on missions straight out of HS, church-owned universities, encouragement to marry and start families at a young age, etc. But the internet has thrown a wrench in this model because now people can access information and have virtual experiences from the comfort of their own home and neighborhoods.
Please emphasize family members not being allowed to be with family members when they are married in the temple. That’s very divisive to not allow families to share one of the most important moments of their child’s or family members life simply because for one reason or another they are not considered “worthy”. Can we stop encouraging weddings in the temple and encourage them to be held outside the temple first so that all their loved ones can be included and then allow them to not have to wait a year to have their temple sealing done afterwards? This issue has caused so many a great deal of pain.
Which is why some people have a temple marriage and a civil marriage. I was civilly married almost three years ago, goting to the temple next month. im excited. Irs sad rhar you all, lost your faith, felt judge or. etc….
it doesn’t include my reason. But I was always an outlier. Probably includes every other reason I’ve heard though. Good list.
I call my reason “too Mormon for the church”. Or if you want to categorise it, call it pragmatic-idealist. (I’m not making this up: I wrote about it at the time for NOM) Sine I was a child I have been obsessed with global poverty. Even as a TBM, it was more important to me than the church. There came a time when I realised that I could do far more good outside the church than within it. (Mainly because if I have any talents they are in taking hours and days to think about a topic, and that was just impossible in a small branch of the church: too many callings, too many hours at meetings). To me the church was good, but I needed to do better.
If I have any criticism of the list (and it is a very good list) it is its negativity. To leave the church we do not have to think the church is “bad”, merely that it “could do better.” This is why I call myself “too Mormon for the church”: I get my utopian idealism from my Mormon upbringing. I thought it was the core of Mormonism: building Zion!
Now granted, AFTER leaving (I mean mentally leaving – formal leaving was a technicality), I was pretty angry at the church for a couple of years. I would happily list its sins. I could be as savage as the next exmo who had lost his family due to a lying cult. But even at my most hating, I tried to angle my vitriol as “they can do better” not “they are evil.” Granted, the result is the same: if we use the church when we could do better then we are making a Bad and Harmful Choice. The point is, my initial reason for leaving was not that the church was bad: it just was not good ENOUGH. Now that I have got past my hating years I feel the same way again. I personally am not good at hating. I sometimes try it but I can never achieve anything by it. Maybe others can.
For me, if Mormonism would embrace its own highest ideals I would be back like a shot. I cannot see that happening – it would require the Q15 to be disbanded and openly repent, plus the abandonment of 90 percent of what has been taught since 1830, which is probably a little unlikely. But in principle I think nearly all philosophies have great potential, including Mormonism. And I think pretty much every Mormon is well meaning. And that the outside world has just as much craziness, but in different ways. And that self delusion is a universal trait, it’s just easier to see from outside. Whoops, didn’t mean this to become an essay!
tl;dr need a category “I wish them well, but I wanted to do better”
I wan to add two, but I’m not sure what category it falls under. “Feeling spiritually edified doing an activity that the church teaches drives away the Spirit and does not bring happiness.” Also, “Culture of judging.” The Church apostles explicitly teach against judging others, but members still do it.
For example, in college one day I joined a group of acquaintances who were drinking beer at a barbecue. They weren’t binge drinking, just relaxing and having a few beers with some good food. They invited me to join them and have a beer. In a matter of minutes, I felt more peace and happiness than I ever did through all my years of church activity, and it was with a few beer drinkers who I barely knew. They didn’t judge me for anything, just accepted me for who I was. They knew I was the Mormon who didn’t drink beer and was all snobby about it, but they treated me like a friend anyway.
I can totally relate to the dissonance of feeling spiritually edified when you’re not “supposed” to. I remember trying to make sense of “feeling the spirit” more while visiting a friend’s evangelical church than when attending my own ward. (At the time, I came to the conclusion that it was not the spirit in that instance, but rather deceptive emotion — lol.).
Later, before I left the church but after I stopped reading my scriptures/praying regularly, it seemed so strange to me that I continued to feel “the spirit” just as regularly as before – both at church and in other settings. It really helped me reevaluate what “the spirit” was and where it came from…
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but under Book of Mormon issues, I’d like to add: “Isaiah passages in the Book of Mormon match the King James Version word for word, rather than being a fresh translation.” It seems unlikely that a book dating from many hundreds B.C. would end up with EXACTLY the wording of a book published in the 1600s. Even if passages from Isaiah really were in the plates, this stretches credibility.
It is a pretty comprehensive list, but it could be a bit more specific about temple stuff. I would venture to guess that for most people it is the endowment specifically that is the most uncomfortable part (where I am including the washing & anointing with the endowment, since they are usually done together when doing the ordinance for yourself). You have it in there already to some degree, but it could be a bit more specific while still not bringing out explicit details so as to walk the fine line of respecting those who still believe it is sacred as well.
Wow, very comprehensive. It’s incredible to look through this list, and note so many contributing factors that really capture my own, multifaceted, personal experience — including reasons that I do not often acknowledge in my public narrative (e.g., the hypocrisy experienced at home…)
John,
This is a great list…A few things to mention though:
Foundational Scriptures. There should probably be a separate outline number for BoM and BoA because issues with it are listed under translation problems as well as science issues, but I see the foundational scriptures of Mormonism as a huge issue to stand on its own. I think these need to stand out on their own.
Slight tweak only because it makes a huge difference in my opinion…
The BoM’s three biggest issues are not merely anachronisms. These are radically transformative resources for civilization and their absence is the single issue that marks the difference between civilization in the Americas vs Eurasia. They are more out of place geographically than out of time…For example…why didn’t the Incas develop sophisticated technology, build vast sailing vessels, sail to Europe, defeat the navies of Spain, ransack the thrones of Spain and England, pillage their gold and bring it back to the Americas? Because domesticable plants and animals were in EurAsia not the Americas….
1. Domesticable animals and plants in pre-Columbian Americas such as cows, sheep, goats, pigs, horses, wheat, barley, etc. 14 species of domesticable animals exist in the world and all the species Joseph mentions in the BoM existed exclusively in Europe until Columbus (Diamond 1999:159).
2. Eurasian Technologies and resources in the pre-Columbian Americas: steel swords, chariots, helmets, breastplates, coinage, silk, glass, etc. These technologies arise from a culture of productivity in civilizations that have domesticable animals and domesticable plants.
3. Animal-bread Diseases: Had Lehi and family brought over domesticable animals from Europe, they would also have brought the immunities to animal-bread diseases with them as well…BUT unfortunately, No domesticable animals in the Americas=no immunities to small pox. Upon exposure to Europeans, millions of native americans died. Some studies estimate deaths among native americans by small pox alone to total upwards of 10 Million.
Theological/Cultural Issues:
Institutional arrogance: “the only true” this or that or the idea that all other religions are “an abomination,” and finally the arrogant devaluation of people when they dare to question the church…the idea that people who discover issues are dangerous…when in reality it’s the issues–the church’s own issues–that are the danger.
Theological/Cultural Issue: completely closed off to the outside world. Won’t accept information from outside the church–especially on tough issues. Won’t open up the echo chamber and listen to data from outside…External information is “dangerous” and “anti-mormon” and “anti-faith” and yada yada yada. Why doesn’t the church publish a single peer-reviewed article defending the BoM narrative of ancient americas so that the community of anthropologists could comment? Closed off.
Not a listening culture. Preach first, listen never. Hey, if you have ALL truth and all other religions are nothing more than “an abomination” then why listen?
While many things listed above were reasons I left, for me the #1 reason was that mormon doctrine does not match up with Biblical Christianity. Specifically things like salvation by Grace, the nature of God, etc.
Culture of Vindictiveness:
The culture is vindictive. Maybe it all started when JS set fire to the press…to hide adultery…but today, if you speak out against the church or leave or do anything “contrary” in a public way, they come after you. It’s important for them to label you an apostate, heretic, sinner, adulterer, etc. because this form of devaluation says that the problem is YOU…the questioning, doubting, sinning, light-losing infidel.
Members will shun and ostracize and cut off communication with their own family members and friends simply for disagreeing and leaving. So strange.
I recently watched a TV show on a similar cultural phenomenon among Scientologists. They call it “disconnecting.”
Too Much Theology and the theology is too important:
Way too much doctrine and theology. Way too much. I could go on…but to militate around a theology at the expense of a relationship with a loved one or friend…I hate this. Also, too much theology because most of it’s unknowable….recently I saw someone explaining with great pride the plan of salvation…all the right circles were correctly placed on the chalk board…then, I wanted to ask: “Tell me about that circle right there…” and an empty gaze would have followed…Much of what we call “knowledge” is just a bunch of empty circles with labels on them.
I’m guessing, for many, it’s one to a handful of things that give people a reason to step back and apply the same critical thinking skills to the church that they apply to everything else.
Imperfect members may chase intelligent people out but those people, once they get out, find many valid reasons to stay gone.
It would be interesting to see an exhaustive list of reasons why heavy doubters remain active. Here is a short list, some of which apply to me:
Belief/hope that the good outweighs the bad.
“Even if it isn’t true, I lived a good and happy life because of it”
Potentially bad for business/career.
Don’t want to hurt loved ones
Enjoy the social aspects
Enjoy having ritualism and routine that help me focus on The Other and not The Self
Belief that all world views are flawed, so might as well operate within the world view that you are familiar with.
Mormonism is my heritage and I choose to stay out of duty.
To support a believing spouse.
To preserve a marriage with a believing spouse.
Damaging church cultural practices and doctrinal teachings that are:
1. Not acknowledged and condemned by the leadership.
2. Actually not a good way to raise your kids, contrary to the popular belief that “the Mormon church is a good please to raise your kids, even if you don’t believe.”
They can cause lasting psychological damage to the people, especially children and adolescents, in the church.
One very well articulated explanation on rape culture can be found here: http://secretsofmom.com/?p=2801
See also Elizabeth Smart speaking out against the “licked cupcake” teaching, that a single woman is worthless without her virginity. This is taught to scare people into doing the right thing and has long lasting negative psychological repercussions for women who were raped or had sex outside of marriage/after divorce.
There are many additional teachings/activities that are damaging and occur at a local level of which former members do not want a part of and would like the leadership to rebuke/repudiate/apologize.
*not to mention the rape culture perpetuating the sexist view that a woman is to blame for a man’s actions, absolving the man from a significant part of responsibility in committing sex acts/rape and teaching women that they are responsible when someone abuses them.
I started reading and I couldn’t continue. Too much resonant pain.
Is – being hit over the head with marriage/endowment rites that made me a distant servant to my husband and totally separated me from God.. on the list?
And, in that, add — being gaslighted by everyone who loves you and those you’ve trusted your whole life, as they all act like you are making it up, rather than as thought those items are *exactly* the meaning of the words of the temple rites.
and then, patriarchal abuse, female erasure, all the dynamics of powerlessness from the women (passive aggression, back-channeling, etc) and watching your daughter be groomed to dissolve herself upon marriage into a non-human servant who develops everyone and herself last. And your sons, groomed to do that to those they marry.
OK. Still can’t read it. Hope it’s in there. Thanks for trying to do this, John.
Laura, I lost my belief in the church not because I am anti-Mormon, but because the Church is anti-Laura. You see, I’m homosexually oriented and the Church is anti-gay. You can claim you love gays and still be anti-gay in your teachings and edicts. It’s near impossible to keep trusting in leaders who say things that you know, from personal experience, are dead wrong. I’m sure this fits under ‘how the church treats gays’ and feminists etc….. I just thought ‘anti-gay’ should be on the list. The rant I herd in Sacrament meeting could only be seen as anti-gay. It felt anti-me.
I’ve got another item to add to the list: Some people leave because a sense of apathy creeps in and eventually outweighs the commitment previously made to the Church. Rather than having an active issue with some item in the church’s history, or a doctrinal or cultural quibble, some people just stop caring about the Church, or about the role of the Church in their life. It becomes less important to them than other things in their life that had previously been less important than the Church.
I’m still active but the reason why I no longer believe and will likely leave is because I can’t believe that God would sabotage His own plan by A. not giving everyone a spiritual confirmation (I’ve now met 4 people who haven’t received one), B. allowing his mouthpiece to spew hateful things towards His children who happen to have darker skin and discourage them or others from wanting to be church members C. prevent those same children who He loves to receive necessary ordinances to achieve the highest degree of glory D. have his prophets pursue prop 8 which has made many members leave and many potential members be turned off by the church. Also, it appears this has actually helped gay marriage become instituted faster than had prop 8 not happened. Why would a loving Heavenly Father with only one path allow His prophets to sabotage it?
I also wish to have mentioned the young men who leave or go inactive due to being treated like lesser individuals because they chose not to or can’t serve missions or for those who feel pressured to leave and then return early. So many great young men have been shunned or labeled because of these reasons and I think it’s sad that not being able to serve is such a deal-breaker in the church for proving you are a good young man-and an awful lot of young women in the church refuse to date young men who aren’t returned missionaries, which also makes it much harder and less appealing to want to stay in the church. No one should have to feel they are broken or inferior just because they can’t or didn’t want to serve a full time mission. Too much pressure in that area. Also, i’m seeing a great deal of cultural pressure now that the age has been lowered for young women to go. It’s not even a commandment for the young women, but now if the young women don’t go, everyone seems to act like it’s a problem. I just wish that the youth didn’t have to feel they would be looked down on or met with disapproval just because their plans don’t include a mission.
Great list. I still go to church every week, have a temple recommend and have a testimony (although it has evolved over the years). Even so, I agree wholeheartedly with some of the issues and somewhat with some of the others that you have listed. I still go to church because overall I get more out of it than it takes from me. In other words my list for staying would be bigger than my list for leaving. It would be interesting to see what that list would look like too and it would give some context to the other.
I will add a few things, but a really great list so far:
1. Not fitting the Mormon family mold (Examples)- Being born outside of the covenant, but still being born in the church (Father a nevermo, Mom a TBM makes the child a “part-member”). An individual who gets married outside of the church. An individual feeling like they have to stay single if there are no options within the church.
2. Feeling like one has to believe all or nothing about the church. Members can’t interpret the Book of Mormon as a mystic text, they have to interpreted as literal. I think this can cause someone who even doubts the church by just 1% to then leave, because that’s what he/she has been taught.
3. I think this was mentioned, but I think it warrants more detail. The fact that men can get sealed to multiple women and women can only be sealed once. That many in the church still to this day think that in the CK it will be required that men have multiple wives. That women are seen more as things for men vs being a person.
I identified with just about every point. I do have a few things to add. First, the way members judge the youth in the ward. My oldest son was singled out at school (7 and 8 grade, 10 and 11th) by a boy who was a year older and a leader in the ward and school; in fact, he was very involved in student government and church leadership. My son refused to tell where the tiny bruises covering his back and chest were coming from when he was in 7th and 8th grade. The abuse changed from physical to mental in high school. My son finally told me when he was a senior and the abusive boy had graduated and was on his mission. The boy had held leadership positions throughout his life. My son was the outsider, the troubled kid, the “loser.” Ward members clearly revered the other boy and constantly held him up as an example. My son was not the only boy in the ward to suffer under this bully’s reign of terror, and the signs that he was not everything he was cracked up to be were ignored by the ward Aaronic priesthood leaders. I am not accusing all the ward members of mistreating the less popular boys, but there was a lot of favoritism for the so called successful and popular kids leaving the unbeautiful to feel less valuable and less loved. Well… I’d take my tender, compassionate son any day.
Second, I don’t think you mentioned the church in the bedroom. When I got engaged in the 70s the wrongness of birth control was discussed from the pulpit in my BYU ward on a weekly basis. The bishop read letters from the first presidency or talked about it on his own. This was a singles ward. My bishop had 12 children, so he had lots to say and stood on firm ground. His wife would take a few minutes in RS every week to lecture us on multiplying and replenishing. She also gave us parenting tips, most of which were, in my opinion, draconian. I was pregnant three months after marriage. Crazy. Years later when I went to my bishop, overwhelmed with having had 6 children under 10, he told me I had no right to resentful. The church did MAKE me have all those kids. It was my choice.
Third, the bedroom continued. I think it was in the 80s that the church said certain sexual practices like oral sex were inappropriate. That definitely messed with my head. Makes me mad just to think about it.
Excellent list, John. Sometimes I think what we’re really dealing with here is nothing but a huge real estate empire led by clueless, elderly men who are utterly obsessed with oppressing women, youth, people of color, and LGBT persons. These men are fanatics about delving into and controlling people’s private, personal sexual behavior and shaming pretty much everyone they attempt to control. The church is the ultimate pyramid scheme that promises vast payoffs after death, but DEMANDS enormous sacrifices of time and money in this life so they can grow their empire of domination and dehumanization. What an utter travesty of human justice this organization is!
John, great list. I identify with many of them. This should be required reading for every active Mormon. Of course many of them will still say, “they were offended or wanted to sin.”
John, two less thought of reasons for leaving the church:
A. Ward or stake boundary changes. Your children lose all their Primary/SS/YM/YW friends in a single Sunday.
B. The parents of four tiny kids are called repeatedly to report to the ward building early on Saturday mornings to clean the toilets/classrooms/public areas. Rather than once a year, the call comes monthly, or even more often on a “urgent need” basis.
This is a great list, John. I appreciate the work and thought you’ve put into it. I also appreciate the contributions of others who have helped flesh out the list.
My one suggestion would be to use an ordered list versus a bulleted list, with the primary reason being ease of reference.
How about god broke his covenant and so I became Agnostic? Comforter is promised to us as a CONSTANT companion and some of us didn’t have it in the darkest moments we should have had it stronger than ever. Anyway, might have been in there but that’s what broke my shelf and led to my discovery of the other things and finally allow me to start reasoning again.
Making the priesthood male only, telling men and women the man presides, saying priesthood is the power to act in the name of God, the obedience covenant in the temple, the woman depending on the man to get into the Celestial Kingdom, the woman being subservient to the man even in the Celestial Kingdom all contribute to culture that enables abuse. It needs to be put that bluntly.
Abusers protected by bishops. Bishops discourage the reporting of abuser’s criminal behavior to police.
Youth protection training for boys and young men, but no similar training for young women and girls.
Heavenly Mother is missing, as usual (meant with a touch of humor).
The responsibility of having the priesthood and using it to give blessings when you don’t believe there is any special power or if in a leadership role knowing callings are not from inspiration but because someone would be good or willing to do the calling
I agree completely. It’s very male dominated and sexist. And if a woman says anything about. Her faith and eternal salvation are questioned for wanting equality.
First John a huge thanks to you. Your efforts over the years have helped thousands. And it is a wonderful resource to the church itself whether it is fully recognized or not.
For me, all the issues you listed were easily explained or were not problematic for me when I viewed the world through faith and emotions. As soon as I added logic, facts and reason, this list felt entirely different. Most active members view and approach things related to the church very differently than they do other aspects of their lives. I could no longer approach the church differently than I did my profession, investments, etc. and soon the church began to feel entirely illogical and in many cases simply silly.
Not sure you listed JS’s teaching that all New Testament events up to and including the flood occurred right here in Missouri, USA. Hard to find a more illogical teaching than that. While a TBM, I loved the doctrine of a Heavenly Mother. That rang so true to me and yet we were too embarrassed to ever speak about it. We tout so many illogical and embarrassing teachings but hide the one that, for me at least, made the most sense and provided the most comfort.
At the end of the day, really at the end of years of study, prayer and struggle, the church literally screamed “man made”. And this is only reinforced as the church itself will throw any leader or former prophet under the bus of “personal opinion” if something they said no longer fits the current narrative. My shelf finally collapsed when I realized it is literally impossible to distinguish revelation from opinion/tradition/culture/administrative decisions/PR, etc. And the recent essays on LDS.org only magnify that.
Sorry I meant to say JS taught that Old Testament events occurred in Missouri. He even identified Adam’s alter. Of course today that is understood to have just been his personal opinion.
Here is what I find a little disturbing – a very strong parallel between the mindset and thinking of FLDS (i.e. Colorado City, Yearning for Zion) folks and the mindset and thinking of current Mormons.
Elevating the Word of Wisdom to a “saving ordinance” when there is zero doctrinal support.
The manuals all reference D&C 89 (while expecting us to have poor reading comprehension?) when the policy, apparently, dates back to flawed memories of Brigham Young Jr. and the ensuing group-think.
Even if Brigham Young had required a covenant of the membership in 1851, when in our doctrine does one generation’s covenant apply to all ensuing generations? Wouldn’t the stripling warriors have been unable to shed blood, in that case?
This is an excellent list. The one thing that seems off about it is that you seem to minimize the impact sexual sin, word of wisdom difficulties (i.e. alcohol, drugs), or the influence of family and/or friends have on a person’s belief in the Church. From my experience with many friends across different age groups and geographies, those issues seem to be at the top of the list.
It is true that more are leaving the Church because of some issues with its doctrines, history, or leaders. Yet, of those who have left, there are substantial number who began having problems with the Church’s doctrines, history, or leaders after dealing directly or indirectly with transgression of some kind.
For example, there are those who began doubting the Church after their son or daughter struggled with homosexuality. I know of a family whose father was excommunicated. All of the children who grew up when he was active in the Church remained active in the Church. The remaining children who were very young when their father left the Church grew up disaffected with it. I have others who began having moral issues with a boyfriend or girlfriend and felt it easier to stop going to Church than to repent.
Your list is interesting and helpful. Its points are legitimate and need to be addressed. Within it are many things that may appear or may actually be contradictory to what we believe about God and Christ. If we rely only upon our logic and reasoning or that of others all of us will fail in the point that God made in creating us: we are required to live by faith.
I, for one, was active, obedient and commandment keeping before everything came crashing down. If you want to make transgression a part of this, fine. I had problems with my father killing my mother and doing it in such a fashion he wasn’t caught. He was buried in his temple clothes. I had a problem with my husband being abusive and when I reported this transgression, the bishop extended a leadership calling to him. I had a problem with my bishop counseling me to not report my husband to the police. In doing this, the bishop committed a crime. Was transgression a part of my disaffection? Definitely! The question is whose?
I am willing to consider the whole “they may wanted to sin” scenario, but what I’ve observed is people who leave the church did so long after the loss of their testimony. I also think the wanting to sin excuse is putting the car before the horse.
If you were to see me, today, you might see me not wearing garments and drinking tea. I don’t do this because I want to sin. I do this, because my faith crisis had me examining everything I’d been taught. It was several months before I learned that rapists target their victims by who seems to have a sense of bodily shame and who will be easily intimidated into silence. This type of person will usually cover their body to an unusual degree. Now, I choose clothes by what is flattering, not by what I’m told is modest. I drink tea, because the overwhelming proof says it is healthy, much healthier than soda. You would look at my choices and write them off as a desire to sin. You would not see the two years of anguish as my shelf fell. You would not see the, now four years of ongoing work I go through to determine for myself, through my understanding of God, modern findings in science and human behavior and my own conscience what is right. You would see none of that, because I have been struggling with this for a very long time before I ever let anyone see behavior that others would classify as sin.
I have come across the rare individual who said, “Come on, didn’t you want to sin?” The overwhelming response was no they were happy. They wanted it all to be true. They were anxiously engaged in the cause. Mr. Dehlin did list that reason, but I think he weights it accurately. It’d be interesting to see actual numbers, but I’d put the actual percentage in the single digits.
I’ve just read through the entire list John and consider this to be a significant piece of work that speaks to my condition and experience in so many of the categories you listed. I hope those in high church authority become aware of it and help move the Church in a direction that makes it a far safer place for all members right across the spectrum. I’ve no idea how they could do that as its a huge ship to steer and would take decades to change direction, but then again I guess it can be done, look at the CoC model. Thank you for all you do in this arena John, keep on doing what you’re doing.
I left when I realized the Mormon god did not exist, that the Mormon definition of the word God was ludicrous and infantile. This was in 1961, years before the Internet atwhich point I learned about all the other problems.
I would suggest leaving because of the children. I don’t want my daughters brought up in such a patriarchal religion. I don’t ever want them to feel like their personal needs and wants don’t matter as much as their husband’s or children’s needs and wants. I don’t want them to feel like they have to fit into a specific mold to be considered a good Mormon. I want them to make choices for themselves and not feel guilty about it.
While I was a member I witnessed several instances where the male members were given recognition through callings and attention from ward members while many women were overlooked or marginalized. I served with women who struggled with their self worth as well as struggling with my own.
I thought I might have been overly sensitive about this until I began hearing stories going around Provo, UT about BYU professors being “excommunicated” from the church for praying to heavenly mother.
The excommunications did not make any sense to me at all since motherhood is touted as being the “highest calling” a woman can have within that church and it recognizes Mother’s Day. WTF???
Yes. I left and never looked back.
I am personally still on the fence about leaving or staying. I was raised in the church and believe that many principles espoused by the church are good and wholesome, However my reasons for questioning are the following:
1. The Savior taught a doctrine of forgiveness, love, kindness, compassion, and charity, but many local leaders seem to be more concerned about promoting their own standing in the church than about helping those around them. Local leaders attempt to force their own “pet peeves” or beliefs on the members and claim that it is inspiration or doctrine. Church members are regularly punished for doing the right thing, and then abandoned by the church. In my observations the church does not seem to sincerely care about individual people. The leadership seems to care more about how many people they have in church every week instead of actually knowing the people that are there.
2. The leadership of the church does not practice what they preach. Ex. 1: My father works for the church in maintenance, he is retired army, has a bachelors in Business Administration, and +20 years of experience in construction. At home it is just him and my mother now. Speaking candidly with him last year he told me quote ” If it wasn’t for my military retirement pension your mother would have to also work full-time just for us to pay the bills”.The doctrine of the church is that “the husband is to provide for and protect the family and the wife is primarily responsible for nurturing”. The church also places great emphasis on getting out of debt but does not pay its overqualified employees even enough to simply pay the bills.
3. The doctrine of the church supposedly encourages the use of agency and independent thinking, yet the entire structure of the church is totalitarian. The rank and file members of the church have no say in management or policy decisions. The church leadership does not want the members to think objectively about policies and practices. The leadership of the church decides what its members should believe and then the members are expected to follow blindly without asking questions or attempting to determine the reasons. Members are subjected to inordinate amounts of pressure to conform and fit into the “cookie-cutter” mold of a member of the church instead of being encouraged to discover the personality and individual character that God gave to each one of us. The Universities that are funded and owned by the church are the best example of this. As an alumni of one of these universities I can say that they do not encourage thinking and exploring because that is dangerous to the churches system. Higher education is not as important to them as indoctrination and convincing students that the church is always right with no exceptions.
That being said, I do still hold onto many principles of the Gospel. The Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the scriptures (OT, NT, BoM, & D&C) is truly a beautiful and inspiring thing. The best thing that I have gained from being a member of the church is a deep appreciation for my Christ and His Atonement regardless of religious beliefs I feel that this is something that all honest and sincere Christians can agree on. I sincerely hope that someday all questions and concerns will be resolved by a higher and truly perfect authority, our Savior Jesus Christ.
So is the plan to assemble all reasons why people claim to have left, then go to those who have left and ask them “which one(s) apply to your case?”
Are you being advised by trained ethnographers or those with experience in scientific polls?
I believe I participated in the survey last year that contributed to this list, yet I do not see any indication in your methodology of how one might be able to document how items on this list have been overcome (as I mentioned in my response).
I left because I knew after reading many books, reflecting upon the doctrines and deep soul searching that the LDS Church was not my spiritual home. I was born and raised Catholic until I was 10.
After my parents took the missionary discussions and joined my relationship with this church was as a result of their decision rather than a deeply held conviction or anything else like it.
Since leaving 10 years ago I have found a spiritual path and have no regrets about this choice.
I don’t understand why the church allows those in our country illegally to get baptized and hold callings.They are basically criminals because they broke into our country.
As an inactive lds church member most all of these reasons are rubbish..if you really understand the doctrine. I am taking a break from all churches right now to renew my thoughts about religion and make sure the lds church is where I want to be. Most of my most spiritual experiences have been in the lds church as a convert.
Perhaps some of the doctrine, as it is clearly understood, is rubbish. Do you think that one’s religious convictions and experiences are just as sacred, valid, and important to them as yours are to you?
If you think that Joseph Smith was anything other that lying, sex-addicted con man, perhaps you should think again. Come on folks! If Josephs Smith were alive today, how long do you think it would take to catch him “sealing” some woman or getting caught is one of his lies. He used religion to garner power over unsuspecting frontier folk.
Even though the formal list has already been compiled, I have thought a lot about the following concerns the last few years. I think they have not been covered in too much depth already:
Historical revisionism(negationism): I came across this terminology on Wikipedia. It describes purposeful distortion of historical records or withholding/concealing information, esp. in order to cast some past event in a more or a less favorable light (depending on the purposes of the characterization). An example I recently learned of would include Sandra Tanner’s experience with LeGrand Richards. I have direct experience of this concept when reading copies of the King Follett Discourse in which the portion about child gods has been removed. There are a lot of examples, and the practice seems really dangerous.
Determinism/Foreordination/Predestination/Prophecy: I have struggled with the mormon conception of prophecy for awhile now (I realize many Christians conceive of prophecy in the same way). However, if people are agents with a will that is uniquely theirs, how can anyone-even God-know with certainty what conclusions they will reach on any given topic or what actions they will take as a result? If history is seen as the sum total of the actions of all of these agents having exercised their agency autonomously, how is it possible to definitively predict in advance that any given person will do anything? I think this is doubly so when it comes to predicting the actions of people hundreds of years in advance of the prediction, and even more so when you want to predict the actions of a specific agent apart from a group. If God’s knowledge of creation is this intimate, can existence really be described as a test? What would be the purpose of a test in which the outcome is already certain? Likewise, how could God know definitively, for instance, that Christopher Columbus-and specifically Christopher Columbus (though I know the Book of Mormon makes no specific mention of his name)-would be born and would later discover America? I don’t necessarily have a problem believing that God could know his children/creations intimately, but I don’t believe that he could see definitively “their end from their beginning” without invalidating the idea of agency. The fact that there are “sinners” suggests that there are those predestined for sin, and what would be the use of a repentance process for such a person?
Often, I wonder if this conception of prophecy is a relic of the early American Calvinist, protestant past. Also, I sometimes think it’s utilization is a good intention gone awry. It seems like the purpose of the foreordination concept is to instill in the believer a sense of purpose, confidence, and a dedication to specific ideals. I think it backfires if you believe that you have done something that has put you beyond concepts like the atonement or grace, the safety net principles that are meant to apply to all people in a general sense, specifically when inevitable shortcomings do occur.
People have there own reasons why they stop believing in something. I think one reason is that there too many secrets. Secrets are a deal breaker in relationships why not religion? Especially when they are just supposed to believe in another sinner who speaks for god Religion in my opinion is like the game telephone once you get to the last person it’s nothing like it was originally. There is a god/ess and a plan, and people fighting and arguing over what is wrong is obviously not the right way of doing it. Every devout person of any religion is the right thing for them. The one common ground every religion has is: treat others they way you want to be treated, Love everyone, be a good person and the rest will fall into place. My church is nature love and care for her she is the one we need to devote our lives to right now.
I see many comments above of people who would do well to follow my suggestions, but they won’t solve all the issues people bring up as that would be impossible. We all face struggles with many things in life, including our faith and to those who are struggling I am hoping they will follow the advice of Elder Uchdorf and “doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith”. I mean think about it: one of Satan’s greatest tools is to destroy the faith of every follower of God. If you fall into that category please recognize that your adversary is after you and if the pressure is great, the rewards will be too if you hold on and make it through.
I know whereof I speak as I have very close family members who are struggling too. Hey, its the last days and Satan only has so much time left before he is cast out! He wants to take as many with him as he can. Hold on. Keep the faith and follow the prophet by staying close to the Church. Its called a “strait and narrow path” for a reason. It was never meant to be easy.
LDS talks about how much they ‘pride’ themselves of despising sin. Yet…Most LDS’ I know, use passive aggressive manipulation tactics to bait and switch non mormons into employment. They lure the hard working and honest in with lies of big pay out sales jobs. Then promise them leadership for recruiting. When time comes for their promotion and pay out, they fire the guy and replace him with one of their own. They also do everything within their power to hold the employees pay. Also, judging anyone, for anything, is a SIN. You can spin my words how you please but you will just be further proving my point in showing the manipulation at play. “He without sin, Cast the first stone.” No…that wasn’t all mighty Joseph Smith., it was Jesus Chris. The fact of the matter is, the LDS Is just a huge way to embezzle money and gaining income through deceit and tyranny. Let’s here the response of “oh, you are prejudice, or “oh, you are just not capable of believing because your close minded.” That’s the last thing that the hypocrite view of mormons is so blatant, it’s almost unreal. You preach open mindedness due to your “religion” yet you force obedience? Make up your minds.
I think the #1 reason people leave the church is because they never received a spiritual manifestation of the truthfulness of the restored gospel. Whether born in the church, or converted to the church, everyone must receive this manifestation. With it, in spite of life’s difficulties, it will serve as your most powerful crutch to lean on. Without it, you are more easily led astray or forced to rely on the merits of your own thoughts, rather than those of your Creator. The reason why it is so powerful is because it comes directly from God, a conduit from heaven. It is the purest form that truth and knowledge can be passed to another individual. Doesn’t mean people that receive this manifestation still won’t fall away, but you are 100 times more likely to stay having received it.
Ryan, that is a very thoughtful comment. It may take a lifetime for some of us to be effective receptors of spiritual truth. We are impatient creatures. We want it all right now with only some effort. Making the effort and keeping on keeping on are worth it. In the midst of others in our wards who are less mature(not just spiritually) we keep on. But that IS very difficult not having received that spiritual manifestation of TRUTH. When you lose your most adored loved one- what will you have, if no understanding that there is truth? God knows our weaknesses, including mental illness,physical and social disabilities. These can skew our understanding and self-esteem. Any of us with these difficulties need to “doubt our doubts ” and hang on and watch. God is merciful to weaknesses.
Though I have not read every single comment, it would appear (unless I missed it) that it sounds as if many of you finally grew up and grew out of your childish yearnings for fairy tales and mystical beliefs. Please do not misunderstand me and I hope that none are offended by my above comment; however, for me I felt it was more akin to becoming more mature and knowledgeable that I finally realized the it wasn’t any different than trying to believe in Santa Claus or some other being that required a child-like suspension of disbelief to entertain any of those mystical religious stories as actually being founded in any real truth. Sure, some might leave for myriads of reasons, but I would care to venture than when most conduct a self-analysis, they will realize that as they have matured and the zealot mentality is replaced by logic, reason and a pure balance in reality; then it is realized that childish things are put away as adulthood sets in.
I believe after a 20 year apologetics effort with anti-mormons, they most definitely fit my #1 Sin/immorality/porn addiction etc or #2: they don’t like someone, a leader etc and are easily offended. They leave the church, after professing for years to believe, sin THEN discover church history in a tainted one-dimensional anti-mormon rant, they leave. Very few leave “just because the church lied to them”(which is not true!!If they bothered to read Joseph F Smith my husband’s cousin, they would see his honesty and amazing testimony. Why would JS go through what he went through for a lie? He didn’t have a penny to his name when he was murdered by an angry, former member, anti mormon devil possessed crowd. If you leave the Church it is only by the bidding of the Devil, Satan . If anti mormons were honest (and most are not) and took a moral inventory when they started to doubt or go inactive, I’m positive their would be some sins that would have needed confessing : either WOW or morality. This is NOT a myth, look at the topics/threads on RFM , post mormon etc!! even John Dehlin said, that has been his experience as well (peeople leaving and goimg off deep end sin-wise, )
@Kittychemist — Many Mormons, from my experience and observation, are stuck in a mystical euphoria mind-set that places blinders on their human-abled truth detection; therefore, they believe that god / Jesus restored the LDS church and that the prophet and apostles commune with the gods. Yet, if you take a couple of steps back and apply a honest and thorough examination of all the facts and un-suspend your disbelief, you will see that Mormonism (as with all other world religions) is man-made and no different than any other ancient mystical belief systems and or (what many now would call today) forms of mythology. JS and his ilk committed a well thought out and orchestrated plan that continues to “pull the wool” over the eyes of those who are less educated and or unable to truly think on their own. Additionally, many recent LDS leaders have claimed that Mormonism simply builds upon the truth that all Judeo-Christian religions had had at one time. So, if one does the thorough research on this history, they will find that this entire belief system was stolen from other much older mythologies that pre-dates biblical writings. The story of Christ was a fabrication built upon numerous middle-Eastern and far-Eastern religions. Of course many will say: “We have the BofM to validate the bible record.” Unfortunately, this book too now does not stand up against archeological and anthropological facts; which all takes us back to what is a matter of historical fact: Joseph Smith was a fraud. Therefore, belief in any Judeo-Christian religion is solid proof that a sucker is born every minute! My suggestion to any and all that read this is to please do your homework before you begin any ad hominem attacks on me. And, if you do your research properly, you will discover that (as I said above) all religions are man-made for the purpose of control, manipulation and profiteering by the few to subjugate the many. (Yes, I am an ex-believer and NO, I did not leave because of sin or insult — I simply did the research and found the truth.)
Kitty- I have always asked myself that same question: why would Joseph Smith and others go through all that if it were not true? Also some people read the anti-mormon -angry c— some are mentally and socially fragile. These comments about peripheral issues which are magnified or simply repeated are very influential to these dear souls. Look for the CONCEPT people! Not at niggling undetails. But you already know that. It is so interesting to me that people spend so much time tearing something down instead of truly building up others.
People. John D, I believe it was in your podcast “why I stay” that you made the comment about the former mormons (most, not all) giving over to reprobate (my word) behavior. It is when you were talking specifically about immoral sins. I truly do not judge anyone until they attack either my Jewishness or my Mormon-ness. The Patriarchs of all the scriptures, including JS were human beings, Moses was truly one flawed dude, but does that negate the 10 commandments being true or his message being divine?
I joined the Mormon church 6 months ago. Was baptized and all the fixings. I began to really dig the folks at our ward. They were all nice, open to me and were friendly. Things have so changed. I am in the church and feel good about that, but now I feel I’m being shunned by them. Many women that once spoke to me no longer look my way in church. One woman and her husband have started shunning me, and the other day i go in and the person that gives them a ride said they were not in church. Then later I saw them. The wife saw me and ran up to me and said, “Oh, are you hiding?” I explained I was not, and walked with her to Sunday school. Get in there, and she seemed the only one that was going to sit with me. She whispered in my ear as we began to listen, “Murmuring? murmuring!?” I whispered back “Shunning me, don’t talk about me, no shunning, no murmuring”. But she was kidding, I was not. And she is not a well woman but no one told me. So now I find myself sitting isolated from them, sitting alone in one long pew. Why are they doing it when I pay my tidings, more than I’m supposed to, come to church, read the Book of Mormon and show them I care and respect them and god. What’s the problem. Why won’t they talk to me or want to be my friend? What did I do wrong. I am 50 years old, female, married (non Mormon man), live well, am not crazy, but a bit over the top at times in a good way. I am over joyous. Do you suppose they think I want to be there because they can do something for me? I want to have a better relationship with God, so I find myself being shunned, I can feel it. Am I wrong? Help?
I left because the church is sexist and racist. Excuse me if “being a wife and mother” is not on the top of my priorities list above college and doing something to make the world a better place. And sorry, but 20 kids are not popping out of this reproductive system. I have way too much self respect for that. Men do not control me. They are my equal. My husband understands and respects that.
I am a convert of 35 years, married with grown children. I have served in many leadership positions throughout the years including Ward Relief Society President. I was disowned and thrown out of my home by my Italian Catholic family just prior to my marriage in the temple because my family was so upset that they would not be able to see the marriage ceremony. At my baptism, some of the members of ward kept watch at the doors of the chapel because my father threatened to show up and make a scene and stop my baptism from occurring. In fact, I was a member just a few months when he did show up at a Sacrament meeting and interrupted the meeting looking for me. The bishopric had to usher him out; needless to say, I was mortified but the members of the ward were very kind and supportive. The point of telling you all of this is that in spite of all these difficulties and the sacrifices that I had to make in order to join the church, I made them nevertheless because I believed it was God’s true church and he wanted me in it. I was faithful and very active over the years while maintaining a professional career and raising my children. I gradually became aware of certain doctrinal/historical issues that were extremely troubling but as most faithful Mormons, my life was so busy I never really took the time to study and ponder them. That, coupled with my politics and my working full-time with young children always seemed to set me apart from the typical member but people accepted me for who I was and my ward family was like my own family.
Sitting in Sunday School at the beginning of this year when we started studying the Old Testament, the teacher turned to the Book of Abraham. Aware of the problems with the Book of Abraham the thought suddenly struck me, “doesn’t anyone else here see the ridiculousness in studying this book?” At that point I had an epiphany and realized that my personal integrity would not allow me to continue to pretend that everything was okay. I could no longer continue to live with the cognitive dissonance that had been building inside me over the years. I have not attended church in six months. I have devoured books, online sources and your podcasts in that time and I am now, more than ever, convinced that the church is not and never was what it purports to be. At first I was angry but my anger gradually gave way to a profound sadness. I have, thankfully moved beyond that stage. Joining this church was not easy for me. I sacrificed a great deal to join with the Mormons. I would not go back and undo all those years of faithful activity because they brought me much joy and happiness and for my family but now I definitely see a different path to my life, one that allows me live with integrity.
Susan, that’s right! The book of Abraham has been totally debunked, and it’s the reason I now KNOW that Jospeh Smith was no prophet whatsoever. It’s completely about an egyption burial of a spititual leader named “Heron” and the papyrus Joseph Smith used has been located and studied by scholars world wide, there is NOTHING even mentioning anything about Abraham – and it was written 2,000 years after Abraham’s death by Egyptions honoring Heron at his time of actual death. The detailed notes in Joseph Smith’s diary of translating the papyrus further show how ludicris and innacurate he was in this so called translation. It is completely laid to waste in this very historical and accurate documentary here:
People need to watch and educate themselves. If Joseph Smith were a real prophet, this falsehood would have never been translated and published. I expect the Church to alter and/or remove this from the Book of Mormon at some point, because they know the truth shall set you free! it’s the biggest reason Mormons are leaving the church faster than the missionaries can convert them – and will continue to do so.
SFL KK, thanks for sharing the link. I learned a few things and am more convinced than ever that the B of A was completely made up byJoseph Smith. He neither translated it nor was it inspiration from God. The church can back peddle all it wants on this issue and now say that it wasn’t a literal translation but Joseph’s own words say otherwise. It’s amazing how much cognitive dissonance people are willing to live with (including me, until I finally just couldn’t do It any longer).
NO NO NO Susan, YOU ARE TOTALLLLLLLY wrong about Book of Abraham. What Joseph Smith did NOT have is the knowledge (3rd grade education) of what it was, and just went full on into it, using God’s subconscious way to tell him what it will mean to his Mormon converts and him. When I read it, I saw even more that Joseph sort of missed, due to his not knowing what the symbols meant. I do know what the Book of the Dead is, and I can see God using it for Joseph to use his mind and open it via God, to come up with The Book Of Abraham. It is not useless and makes you really read very deeply. In college I studied The Egyptian Book of the Dead and my dorm, room was filled to the brim with Book of the Dead characters, Horus, Amun Ra, Osiris and more. Joseph Smith did a great job, considering he did not know the symbols, so the book came to me and I have been reading it, and have MY OWN translation of what it meant, but Joseph’s translations is very good as well, but since I know more than he did, and I am a Mormon (shunning or no shunning), I can fully get into reading The Book of Abraham. Yes, it’s The Book of The Dead. But it’s more than that. Why would God allow it to come right to Joseph. How many wagons came with that kind of prize in it. Joseph bought a few mummies and 18 of the scrolls, all real, all Egyptian. That book is so cool. And you will, if you are open, see that reading it, you can make your own translations that Joseph either missed or didn’t know. And for good reason too! God was protecting him and only allowing part of his mind to see what God was trying to do and what he wanted Joseph to do, and Joseph completed it almost. But in those days, it was harder, so what I’ve done is finish the translation or extend it, and I can see NO REASON why the congregation is shunning me, when I’ve done nothing wrong but didn’t know I had to wear a dress, or that some member was acting crazy out of social retardation, and no one told me anything about a few sick Mormons in that ward, but as soon as I got a hold of Book of Abraham, I was righted in my own mind and am staying, shunning or no shunning, so what! I am there for God, and if the congregation keeps shunning I just keep telling some WHY are they doing it? That may be the reason. But I have to say in closing, BOOK OF ABRAHAM IS THE BEST!
OK, I’ve been in the the Mormon Church going on 8 months now. And they are still shunning me MORE than EVER and then covering it up. I can see it, I can feel it, I can SMELL it. They don’t like me! It’s not that I want to leave, on the contrary, I want them to just like me and see my joy over my new relationship with God. It all started soon after I was baptized. The couple that was helping me started shunning me then others. Each Sunday I noticed less people sitting with me, and I found myself sort of looking around for someone to sit with, so now I’m sort of stuck with really old people and there I am sitting between them. I guess I am just an odd duck. I read Book of Abraham and believe in Book Of Mormon and what Joseph Smith was trying to say, but I’ve had my own visions and translations about him (all good), and I am able to translate the book of Abraham the way it really should be done. It’s right, but there is so much more I found that Joseph did not mention, and I studied THE BOOK OF THE DEAD Egyptian book, which is what it was. So I don’t know what’s the problem, maybe it was when I told some others that others were shunning me and that some were coming up and screaming that I can’t wear pants or some minor infraction I didn’t know about. After I told on a few, I noticed they were all shunning me. So I’ll just stick it out and worship my God, and Jesus, and continue reading BOM! Otherwise I love being Mormon, it’s the congregation that hates me, not god.
@Globalgodira — What if it was all a scam, concocted by one of the worlds best con men, what would you do then? All things Mormon have been debunked and I find it amazing supposedly educated people can suspend their disbelief to the point that they believe in this tripe.
Actually Will, I do not think it is a scam at all. God is no scam. Jesus Christ is no scam, and Joseph Smith was not a scammer. I believe in Book of Mormon very much so, as well as Book of Abraham, it’s so interesting, and I just don’t like how the congregation at my ward won’t embrace me right away, but I do feel a different me rising up. I’m calmer, closer to god, and am very much more happier. I love being a Mormon, and want to be so much better. Whatever happens at the ward is usually caused by a “CHURCH PARROT”, one person or two. I noticed after I wrote my post above, that I prayed on it, and suddenly I got more answers as to why it’s being done. It’s a CHURCH PARROT, some socially stupid person who comes up to me and says things that the person has heard from one or two that like that sort of church parroting thing. And they are in any church, any school, any spa, any condo complex! It’s just normal they would be afraid of me, because I am quite serous about my God and Religion. I’ve tried them all, no success as I’ve had with the Mormon Church, shunning or no shunning. I know it’s only about 4 people, and the rest really do like me. I found out last night just what the situation is now. Thank God for the missionaries, or I’d be a wreck. Thanks though for you opinion and post and god bless, I’ve learned so much from this site. I will endure any shunning, if it is shunning that is happening. God works his magic in weird ways. Go with God.
@Globalgoldira — My purpose in asking the question that I did is that I too use to believe in these mystical stories and relish in these elaborate tales of mysticism; but, I use to believe in Saint Nicholas too. Of course, as I grew in maturity and knowledge I was able to put away these childish thoughts. This too allowed me to un-suspend my disbelief and begin to see things for what they truly were. As I started to expand my horizons and discuss these things with others I was quite shocked at how many people are able to live their lives in a total suspension of disbelief and therefore become easy targets for scams and fraud. It was at this point that I understood what Carl Sagan meant when he said: “You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe.” And it was then that I realized most people do not want to see the evidence that is so clearly before them because they have such a strong need to fill some type of void that they tenaciously grasp at these belief systems, even though they (these belief systems) have all been created by men to control and manipulate the populous. The first question to answer is: Was there actually a Jesus Christ and is there even a shred of historical evidence of his existence? The answer is no, there was not a historical Jesus, any more than there was a Krishna, Odysseus, Dionysus, Heracles, Glycon, Attis of Phrygia or a Horus; all of whom the stories of Jesus were plagiarized from. So, if there was no Jesus…then the Joseph Smith creations and additional stories are only the continuation of the mystical stories of yore and, more importantly, makes him and the LDS church a scam based upon a fraud. If you want to know more, please let me know. However, if you would like to live your life in a bubble, then please ignore all that I have said and be happy in the ignorance and bliss of total suspension of all disbelief.
Wow, Will, that’s a mouth full. You must have been hurt by these folks, the Mormons. I have not been hurt by then, just not embraced as much as I first thought. But when I was in college in the early 1980’s, I did a whole thesis on Book of the Dead, Egyptian full version, and in that time I was also babysitting for this Mormon family, but only 18 at the time, so I didn’t see it then. But I fell in love with the art of the Egyptians I saw in the Book of the Dead, so got an art student to re create and paint the images from Book of the Dead which stayed on my wall in my college dorm for almost 3 years. So I am familiar with the scrolls that Joseph Smith translated. The translation is abstract, you have to think of it as what it is in just your own mind, and what was in Joseph’s at that time. He had to veil it to make it not seem real, so when he translated it, God came to him subconsciously and put those translations in his head. When I read it, Will, I saw a whole different translation than even Joseph Smith did, and I shared this with the missionaries and the pat ones in Utah, and I think people get a bit freaked out, just like if I was with any other church. I was first going to a Lutheran Church near by my home, and after I was baptized there, I realized there were BIG problems, all the congregation were gay men couples and the pastor was a female with Bipolar Disorder and she had an assistant who was gay and recovering, and all the women were sort of “broken” and I had a bad falling out with them and swore not to do it again. So I left. On bad terms, i wrote their bishops and such, and it was such a mess. That was like 3 years ago. Now I hear and read what you are saying and respect your opinion but I can’t see The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as a scam. Today I got a call from an old missionary whose partner got married, the girl that was involved with her mission. I was so happy she called me, it made me feel so good. They make me feel very good, and if it’s a scam, then well, I feel pretty darn good, even with the slight shunning. After I posted my post, I got a chance to meet with the missionaries and told them all I told you, but not as much, maybe a bit more than I’m saying here, but all the same, I had to read your post several times, it was hard to figure it, but it’s obvious like me with the Lutherans, you had a bad experience with the Mormons, right? I don’t believe they plagiarized from Egypt, maybe borrowed a bit, and every religion does that. I tried them all, and never had as much success in finding My Lord Jesus and for the first time, God himself more closer to me. It’s amazing. Yes, I am being shunned, but not as much as I first thought, and yes, Mormons have that stigma of a scam or cult, but I assure this ward I’m in is the hardest one to stay in, because of the location and congregation members, some who are very famous in the Biz. So they don’t really know me yet. But they will. They will embrace me, and some are. But most are not. I accept it. It’s not about them, it’s about me. I am married to an older Jewish man who has “0” interest in the church, I’m older, mid fifties, I’m Jewish, I’ve been baptized by other churches, and now here I show up at the doorstep of this Mormon church, but I’ve never been fished by females, and this time, after 4 other times of elders coming to me, I had two ladies who are so comely and so sweet and beautiful and just marvelous. If not for their constant commications, I’d be a wreck, but they’ve kept me steady, as well as meeting with the new missionaries, and an occasional meeting with our Bishop in our ward, I’ve met with him a few times. I have ONE BIG thing I have to give up, or it will block my endowment and I believe that when the time comes I will be ready and once a year goes by and they see I am for real, not trying to get contacts in the Biz, they WILL embrace me. It’s enduring and enduring and enduring, so much has happened to me since joining the Mormons, it’s joyous and strange and surreal and odd and I’m enduring. It’s all I can say, no justification but thanks again for your post. Bless you, you are now in my prayers. Feel free to respond anytime.
Will
August 17, 2014 at 12:38 pm
@globalgoldira — Thank you for your quick and detailed answers. From your response I see that you feel that the LDS church fulfills a need in your life and, I know that a feeling of or the need to feel as part of something does and can fill certain voids in one’s life…I completely understand that. Also, it would appear that you think I was offended or hurt by someone in the LDS church and that is why I left…which is not the case at all.
My reasons for leaving were many and it began a journey that turned me to an agnostic first (since I realized all religions were creations of men), then to atheism (since I discovered that god was made up — for the manipulation of mankind) and now to be a total anti-theist. But, to get back on point of what the original question was: Why Mormons Leave? My answers are many; however, I have limited those answers to the below responses (all based upon 100% verifiable historical evidence – none of the points below are made up nor based upon a personal opinion, just the cold hard facts):
1- Joseph Smith was a complete and total fraud, a pedophile, a rapist, an embezzler and one of the best recorded scam artists’ of the past couple of centuries.
2- The LDS church perpetuates this (Joseph Smith) fraud upon all its followers and have now, in violation of all canonized scripture, elevated Joseph Smith to deity, adorning offices and church buildings with his graven image.
3- Evidence abounds that Joseph Smith’s creation of the Book of Mormon and his writings in the Pearl of Great Price are all total fiction; yet, and here is the fraud, being passed off as the literal words of god and or ancient prophets (all of which has been disproven so many times via historical, archeological and anthropological research that it still amazes that so many continue to be duped into thinking these writings are anything other than poorly contrived fiction).
4- Jesus Christ never ever existed! Oh, perhaps there were a few people that might have had this name, but there is NO historical evidence that the biblical version of a Jesus ever lived (the myriads of actual physical data and historical evidence that proves that Jesus did not exist is over whelming — yet so many deny that facts placed before them, thus proving what I stated earlier, by Carl Sagan: “You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe.”)
5- The number of writings and or witnesses of infamous leaders, throughout the historical recordings and or personal journals (throughout recorded time), shows forth myriads of blatant admissions that the religions of the world have been and were always intended as a form to control (for those in power) all for the purposes of manipulating the masses purely for the sake of total control (this is so thoroughly documented that it is amazing that the vast majority of educated people do not realize or recognize this fact).
6- In recent history many claim that the Founding Fathers of the USA were all devout Christens and they used their beliefs to frame the organic laws of North America. Again, this is total bologna and the extreme evidence that the majority of the framers were either atheists or agnostics is available in the American historical records and annuals of the time.
As I said before, beliefs in these childish things were fun and exciting while I was a youth; however, as I have grown up and realized that there is no fantastical creatures and mythological characters, I have realized that all religion (e.g., Judeo-Christian, Islam, Mormonism, etc.) are all creations of man for the manipulation of mankind. Clear and simple! And, for me, the freedom and liberty that has come with that realization has been life-changing. I sincerely wish all could experience this level of true liberation of the mind, body and soul.
Plsherratt
August 30, 2014 at 1:08 pm
I have been raised in the church….and now 60. I started questioning things a year ago…..when I was looking at our tithing statement and realized my name wasn’t on there! I was the one who made out the checks every week and paid tithing why was my husbands on there and not mine? Seething inside! I always wondered why my inspiration wasn’t good enough in a calling …ie. Primary President, Stake Primary Pres. Always being overridden by the Priesthood. Also, always wondered about all the great people I know who are not LDS but such amazing people who do more for others than many Mormons…..doesn’t God them just as much?! Polygamy also ALWAYS has bothered me….to the extreme! Then found out my Bishop was talking about my daughter in Ward Correlation Meeting and saying things on supposition (I actually overheard the RS Pres talking about it to another ward member at the Grocery store!!! That is how I found out) just so, so disheartened!
Sir, I can totally relate to what you are saying. I too may have been fooled by the congregation and missionaries, not God! I confided many things to the missionaries and one other gal, and all of a sudden no one talks to me or calls me from my congregation. I don’t want to go on and on, but I saw your post and wanted to let you know that it’s not God I’m upset with, it’s that congregation, they are sort of phony and gossipy. I know no Mormon is perfect, but I didn’t join for friends, I liked the Mormon values and strict ways with God. I do feel much closer to God than I have ever felt in all my years of living, and that’s just going to be enough for me. No one calls, and a few in that congregation are totally shunning me. I saw this woman I was helping with a resume, and said hello to her and she just passed me right by. Very sad. I feel very sad that I love the religion and the Book of Mormon and other Mormon stuff written by Joseph Smith, but as for the congregation, I’m not getting along with them. Each time I come to church it gets a bit worse for me, the shunning and murmuring are in high degree, I feel the vibes. So now I have to shut up and maybe go to a different ward, who knows at this point. All I know is no one is calling me offering any more lifts to church, and I leave before it all ends and take a bus back and to home. Everything in my life has been effected, but some good things have happened but mostly very negative and bad. Good luck to you and I hope you endure. I’m not doing so great.
That is ok. I have been called worse! Ha!
Hang in there. If this religion is what you truly want then I would advise either a visit to your Bishop or change wards.
I went to a different ward for a while but still had feelings of disillusionment. To tell the truth I haven’t had Home Teachers or Visiting Teachers for at least 8years. One time I asked the RS pres if they did away with VT ( which I knew they didn’t because I still went and did mine!) but I never had any visits….and not one person ever calls….ever. But I am fine with it. I don’t need the social aspect of it at all. I like where I am!
Pisherrat, I do need the calls, and I do need the social things of the church. I know why they are doing it. Plain and simple, I AM WEIRD and offbeat and different, not bad, or breaking covenants, or bad mouthing. They just DO NOT like me and the missionaries keep saying, OH they Love you, oh they like you, don’t worry, BUT I DO! I’m depressed. lonely and seeking a new ward as fast as I can do it. I spoke to the bishop and other people in charge about this. One girl is so strange, and I said she was saying stuff to me, so instead of telling her to stop, I get this phony call from her. She’s not into me, she was TOLD to call. Also, whenever I tell the missionaries private stuff, it gets back to people. OH, I am being shunned. And I am not being called, and my teacher barely looks my way. She came here to my home one time and that was that. My male high priest guy has not called in weeks and has been shunning me at church, he’s there, but hides from me. Lots do now. Missionaries coming today so I may say I’m changing wards. Maybe that will, maybe not. Maybe I’ll take a break from it all and just read my scriptures. I love Documents of Covetant, Price of the Pearl. No one likes me there. I feel it in my heart. Thanks. I will let you know what happens. Bless you.
I recently came across a quote that has really helped me lately…..”don’t let your attitude affect your altitude!” I really need to change my attitude ….a lot. It affects the people I love the most. I don’t know if that helps you. It is hard when you know people don’t like you…..or you perceive they don’t. Chin up! My mama used to say, “attitude is everything”. Just keep smiling and they will wonder why? Ha! Also…..I have learned through personal experience, not to say personal stuff to people at church. It is sad but it the place of gossip and stuff gets around. It’s like living in a small town, no one has secrets because everyone knows them!
globalgoldira
September 2, 2014 at 6:09 am
Thanks Pisherratt, I really needed to hear it. Last night missionaries came and helped me and sat with me for over 3 hours, and I want to know if they did that because they heard I am a bit unhappy on some things, or because they wanted to. Let me know your thoughts. They came, but no lesson, just sitting around talking about life and family, showed them photos of family, and we had a wonderful time. Wish the congregation would do it, but I have to say that I am happier with the Church now. I love being a Mormon, and hope I stick with it. thanks again. Be well and God Bless.
Bright
September 10, 2014 at 12:07 pm
Ghana
The plan of salvation is very simple and highly effective.
They get you enticed with being like God, bring God to a definite beginning, like you and i, that even Jesus married after all, that Lucifer showed us the way that we can create our own planets, resurrect our wives with their secret names, and be exalted in pairs, and go on to create a new Satan in our private jet galaxy in space. But until then, pay your tithes. Tithing is all the faith you need to get there.
‘Heavenly Father’ and atonement is all we hear, covering up hideous evil in black and white.
Satan has used a very clever strategy. Not different from the first one which worked somehow in Eden. But this time in the name of ‘Heavenly Father’.
The Anti-Christ bears a ‘Christ name tag.
Ever since i begun finding answers because they couldn’t answer common sense questions, the reality of Satan became clear. He wears no horns or blasts bombs. He comes with a bible and surface solutions.
Search the scriptures, and non of his doctrines lead to to salvation of the True God, through his only begotten son Jesus the Christ.
@Ghana — Yes, it (Mormonism) is all part of an elaborate scam that was actually started a few thousand years ago; but Joseph Smith figured out a way to improve upon the scam and hone it to near perfection.
The fact is, there never was a Jesus, historically or otherwise; that is, in the biblical / BofM or any other sense of the definition. Jesus was a plagiarized story or form taken from several other mystical belief systems and formed into what later became the Christian movement. In the 1800’s, thanks to a more tolerant government, Joseph Smith and company were able to build upon this mythology and make, to the feeble and simple minded person, an air-tight validation of a “restored” gospel. Bottom line, Joseph Smith and the Mormons are frauds built upon an ancient scam that continues to perpetuate itself every generation.
Once people begin to wake up and grow-up, intellectually, they will realize that all forms of religion are based upon mysticism and have no foundation once looked at deductively.
So, to make a long story short, there is no god or heaven upon us and there is no devil or hell below us! I encourage you to take the path of true freedom and liberation found through a-theism.
Interesting. Wish i could gulp down all you said. With so much experience and having encountered the supernatural in many ways, considering the environment am coming from, that won’t be easy. But as even children on record get to wake up from ‘Invention of lying’, am open to proof. But i thought this thread was about why people leave Mormonism, not Christianity in general
@Ghana — Aren’t they one in the same and does not one have to believe in one in order to believe in the other? Therefore, if leaving one you are leaving both (that being Mormonism & Christianity). Yes, I was born into Mormonism; however, once I grew up and had documented proof of the fraud of both Christianity and Mormonism…well, it was very easy to walk away from it all.
Sorry Bright, you are not very bright. All you said in your post was bull! First off, we do not believe in living on other planets. You are confusing the different levels of heaven with extraterrestrials!!! The name we have given the different forms of heaven sound like extraterrestrials! Celestrial Heaven, middle heaven, bottom is called Terrarestreial (sp?). Joseph Smith did not condone multi wives, that was Brigham Young. And the Mormon religion is NOT a fraud. I can’t believe your bad attitude. You bring Satan in to make Mormons look bad. I know I’ve had a few problems in the social corner with my Mormon congregation folks, but I am slowly working that out and even got a little calling. So I’m on my way to understand it better. I have to say in all my years of finding the right way, I’ve never felt so close to GOD than anything. Saying Heavenly Father is not Satan. Heavenly Father is not Satan. Satan does not exist. God does. Satan is just a part of a dark side of God himself. God is one being, there are no angels, no devil! God is all. Heavenly Father is all. Jesus is his son, but from God. The Father, The Sun, The Holy Spirit! ONE in 3. So I suggest you go back to reading Book of Mormon and get on your knees and pray to God for forgiveness. Yes, there are fake religions, go pick on the Scienctologist, leave Mormon alone. Yes, again, I admit I was worried about my place with the Mormons, maybe they thought I was coo coo, or weird, and I may just be weird and coo coo, but God tests our faith to see if we are honest and real, although he can read our minds because he is in our minds, on the subonscious part, that’s why it is so hard to reach him, or you think you can’t. Tune into your subscicious mind and you will see there is a true religion going on with being Mormon. I for one, doubted my own self, not them. I thought I was not good enough for them and maybe they have judged me, but I can change that by reading scriptures asking questions and finding the RIGHT answers. All your posts are doing is making havoc. Get back to studying. Don’t glorify evil.
@globalgoldira (on your response to Bright / Ghana) — Your response is so full of inaccuracies that it is difficult to say where to start. Most of what you stated has no basis in fact and is actually counter to the basic foundational Mormon beliefs — so, I would suggest before you make these types of responses, in the future, that (as you told this other commenter) in your own words “…Get back to studying…” and PLEASE validate your facts before stating them.
With all that said, though, here are some points you should study also —
Joseph Smith was a FRAUD and, if you look up the definition and compare it to his life story, you will see he fits the definition of a Fraud and a Charlatan, as follows:
Fraud — deception intended to result in financial or personal gain…a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.
Charlatan — a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge, skill or power.
Also, Joseph Smith was the one that started polygamy so as to cover up his philandering and misogynistic behavior (this can be validated by the myriads of journal entries from the many women and girls that he slept with and the parents of some of the young girls that he fooled into thinking they would go to hell if they did not bring their daughters to him to feed his hunger for sexual conquest). If you were to look at his home in Nauvoo and how many rooms it had or that he had designed it to have; along with the real purpose of the Nauvoo Hotel; you would then learn from your studies that he could not leave women alone. It was Emma that finally forced the issue and, because she had threatened to begin engaging in the same time of salacious affairs as her husband was that (and only then) that the miraculous revelations that Joseph received (first his using a revelation from god to tell Emma to repent…and then second on his revelation that men should have multiple wives) all to be found in the D&C.
The Mormon church continues to perpetuate this fraud upon its members by covering up the truths of their history and by further building upon the entire mystical beliefs that there is a god and or a heaven above and a devil and or hell below — all of which is pure mythology. Then they add to this by claiming that there are other writings (e.g., BofM, D&C, PofGP, etc.) that prove it all to be true; however, these documents have all been proven to be fraudulent.
I am sure you feel good when you go to church and believe that you feel something there…but people all over the world that go to their churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, concert halls and palladiums…they too feel the same thing (which is really the collective power of the human soul connecting with other living souls).
Therefore, please do a bit more research, find the real truth and then you will be finally set free!
William: I respect what you say, but you don’t have to keep spelling it out! I know that “feel something” when I am at church, and when I am not there. Ever since I joined with the Mormons and became one, I am learning more on how to be accepted now. I have quieted myself down and I no longer thing the congregation thinks I am odd. Heard a lesson the other day at the Church that said, “God love the odd, and peculiar!!!!” That’s me. I love my God, not Joseph Smith, he just introduced it to me. I am not worshiping Joseph Smith, I am having a better relationship with my Lord God and Jesus Christ. Yes, I need more study, but I have what I believe and that is of GOD JESUS and the Holy Spirit, which is really ONE thing, GOD! I get your point, and wish no anger to you, but I can’t believe the words you put on this page. You sound like the fanatic, not Joseph Smith. And as for all that “allied propaganda” hog wash about the hotel, the affairs, and Emma getting involved, that is nothing more than a nuevello soap opera! LOL, you make it sound like a “Love Fest”. These people lived in a time where rumors were sent flying like clouds in the sky. Until they rope me up and make me marry an already married Mormon man, I’m staying. Maybe you should read my article
I’M A MORMON and STAYING THAT WAY: I’M STAYING WITH THE MORMONS AS A MORMON!
Why I became a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints aka The Mormons! All of my life I have loved God, and believed in Jesus Christ. When I was 5 years old, my mother brought me to a special place in New York State where Joseph Smith saw his vision given to him by the Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.
I stood right where Joseph Smith stood when he saw his vision of a new way to bring in “the modern prophets and end the apostasy. Now there are modern prophets and an established “real” Church of Christ.
I as Joseph, was bullied, beaten and cast out when I tried to talk of Jesus Christ. I was at a summer camp in Vermont. I was 8 years old. I was with the girls in my group. They did not like me. I was so different. We were talking of what God was. I talked about Jesus. All the girls were “Jewish”. They said, “Leslie, do you want us to crucify you like Jesus?” I said “Yes!”
They took shoe laces and tied me between the bathroom door. Then they sang “Crucify her, crucify her!” It did not hurt, it was children role playing and I did not mind feeling what it felt like to be Jesus on the Cross. I even yelled out “Forgive them, for they do not know what they do! Mother, Mother!” And, “It is finished, Father, into your hands I commend my spirit!” From that day I wanted to know Jesus and learn about God.
When I was 10 years old, I was taken to where Joseph Smith found the golden plates. There were many tall mounds of dirt and we tried to dig and find something, but the guide said “No, it’s been all taken!” But it was the place where Joseph Smith found the plates and wrote Book of Mormon.
I realized that being a Mormon would be very good for me. I babysat 4 little Mormon boys when I was 15 years old, and I went to the Mormon Church with them. I learned a lot. I liked the Mormon way of peace and family.
My best friend junior high was a Mormon and also captain of the cheer leaders of my high school. The other girls would say, “Why do you like that odd person (Me)? So weird, So strange?” My Mormon friend told them she loved me and always would love me.
I studied with many “Elders” in the last few years. But when The Mormon Church let women be missionaries, I met two Mormon missionaries. They led me to the right way. I embraced the Mormons and was baptized within one month of meeting them and they saved my life. I found much peace and happiness, and joy.
But most importantly, I am learning how to be a better person. I am learning to be kind, good and I think before I talk. I also think of others first, and have received more blessings since joining the Mormon Church, although I am not perfect and have made some mistakes. I have been a member of the Mormon Church for almost 8 months. I love being with the Mormon Church. They have taught me so much and I have learned so much. To calm down, to not talk all the time, to give of myself, to listen to others and to hear God better.
Most of all I learned how to pray to Jesus Christ so much better and the Heavenly Father, I can feel it.
Please join us. You will find many things with the Mormons as I did. I got my family back, I’ve met new friends, I’ve learned more about Jesus Christ, and I believe with all my heart that The Book of Mormon is True in the name of Jesus Christ.
But it has not been easy, I must increase my faith in the congregation, which is happening now, and I feel they are responding, because they know I am a good person even if I am odd!
@globalgoldira — Thank you for your quick response and details on where you are coming from. I must also say that if this truly makes you happy and you feel you have found your bliss…then knock yourself out.
But please, answer a couple of questions for me:
1- Are you interested in the truth or do you prefer fantasy and mythology more?
2- If you had the entire true stories about the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and the reality of the early days of the LDS Church, would you want to know about that — or are you more of an “ignorance is bliss” type of person?
Please remember, I was born and raised in the Mormon faith…and no, I was not offended by someone, felt a need to escape due to a serious sin or anything else like that…I just finally grew up and, much like believing in Santa Claus, I was able to put away those childish beliefs and now enjoy a life unencumbered by mysticism and superstition.
Look forward to your response.
globalgoldira
September 11, 2014 at 1:10 pm
@William: I like the TRUTH William, but peppered with a bit of all the things you said. Bliss, ignorance, mythology, Mormon, etc. It is alllll rolled up into one big snowball. You’ve heard the saying, The Ball Is In Your Hands, will I translate things like that into this: “He’s got the WHOLE world in his HANDS~” I’ve been able to take Mormon doctrines and books and sayings and egyptian book of the dead scrolls that Joseph was able to weave an incredible VISION from a bunch of old BOOK OF THE DEAD SCROLLS. I did my thesis on The Book of The Dead, and when I saw he had tried his hand at opening his mind and translating them, and what he came up with, I knew it was totally subconsicious and totally off the top of his mind, which is how this story was conceived by him, which HE THOUGHT was a vision, but in reality it WAS a vision he was seeing because I read the same stuff i college, didn’t see the symbols, but when I read BOOK OF ABRAHAM, I began to change my views on what Mormon was really all about. It’s not about all that pomp and secret multi wives bull crap that people have concocted who don’t really have the VISION to see beyond the “SMOKE SCREEN” the Church actually puts up to keep out the riffraff. The ward I go to is pretty high power, I can see, smell, taste and sense it. It’s not been easy for me to really have the faith to know that I CARE if THEY CARE if I CARE, and sometimes I thought to myself: Do they care that I care IF they care? They do. I’m sure of it. In a strange parallel, my new religion reminds me of Masons mixed with Jewish which sort of comes out Mormon. I know what I am talking about here. I know what I feel. I feel a lot the bull crap people say about “US” is ignorance. And in the end it’s not about what Joseph Smith said or did, but how Joseph Smith allowed people like myself to find a closer way to get to God and live in accordance with what God wants. I don’t go for all the pomp and circumstance that is only a smoke screen to the real deal with being Mormon. And I too have put away the childish notions and am now concentrating on God and his blessings and what is close to me. I have changed from becoming Mormon, but still have a long way to go! And I have to accept the fact that now I am friendless, and no family member is understanding or accepting my new faith and in many ways I feel like Mrs. Joseph Smith, not Emma, but ME as a female parallel to Joseph. Maybe you will understand when you read my vision I had when I had an endoscopy and colonoscopy 1 month ago and they put me under: READ, it’s very very interesting and would turn any non believer into a believer if they were open to it.
I SAW JOSEPH SMITH IN A VISION, NO JOKE!
It’s coming up to almost one year since I was baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And in all that time, I have been fighting some gastric illness that crept up 5 days after I joined the Church back in February of 2014.
A few trips to the Gastro doctor proved there may be a problem, enzymes were not functioning, the Pancreas wasn’t working right, What’s the story, B12 shots? And finally the big “C” word came up, they had to find out.
So I began preparing for the colonoscopy (like the 3 times before) and drank the solution to clean up that area, I had very strong feelings I was about to go through an ordeal, something very unpleasant, but not all that horrid as I had first imagined it would be. I have gone through the same symptoms 14 times since 2007.
Maybe it was time for a good shake up after 2 years of no triggers to see the err of my ways, my posts, how I hurt many of my family and gaining nothing more than their disdain.
So, I have been praying to be better, to act better, to try and mend fences, with the family I was sure I had lost forever. And it still may be. Grudges rear their ugly heads with a word or the wrong phrase, another mis-communication, uh oh!
In the interim, I always make the most of medical procedures by taking it up a notch if they are going to put me out. I have always had visions of those who’ve past on, and this time I’d be under longer, because the doctor was going to be doing a very complicated endoscopy with biopsies galore, so I knew it would be at least an hour or more.
“I had a sinking feeling, due to all the trauma, that I may become ill when I woke up, sick as a dog, vomiting, the works! I am rarely ever wrong about when it happens, but I was ready for this attack, because it was going to be a shock to my system when pieces of flesh near my colon are cut or extracted for the pathology lab!”
I spoke quietly with the anesthesiologist, always a male, always with a slight French accent, and also very kind, at least in the last 3 procedures I had endured in the past 5 years. Then my Gastro doctor waltzed in. He reminded me of a famous agent for a big movie star. He looks that good.
Didn’t even get the relax meds, just laid on the surgical bed waiting to see my 3rd vision when they put me out. “I already had ‘Him’ in mind from the very beginning. Yes, Joseph Smith, founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, whom I felt very close too, as well as very open to wanting to see him, if God allowed. It would only be 10 seconds to my mind’s vision. I prayed as gastro doctor’s staff started suiting up.
The Vision Begins: As they put me out, the doctor placed a plastic white guard around my lips and said to count backwards starting with “10”, but instead I whispered “Joseph Smith” over and over. It was actually hard to say the name “Joseph” because of the mouth guard, but I think my mind knew what it wanted from the moment I started reading The Book of Mormon back in January.
As I closed my eyes, everything turned a cloudy white around me. I tried to keep my awareness. For a moment I floated nowhere. All of a sudden, I see something, someone, it’s amazing, but I don’t remember it until later on when I stopped vomiting in the E.R. and when they wheeled me up to my room! I started to recall what I’d seen for 15 seconds and here is what I saw in this strange vision at the Gastro doctor’s surgical suite.
The Vision: I was standing on the side of a big farm field. It was afternoon, fall weather. I saw “Him” about 40 feet in the distance cupping his eyes trying to see who I was, and I was doing the same, cupping my eyes to see him in his purple lambskin coat with a natural looking fleece collar, black tight pants and tall light brown very well made boots that curled up around his knees. I remember what his hair was like and how it was styled. The purple jacket and boots stuck in my mind the most. But the air was thick and cool, blowing a bit.
He was standing with another man, but the other gentleman was blurred out. The jacket that had fleece on the collar was not bright royal purple, but dyed a lighter shade! And those ‘cool’ boots he wore that came up to his knees, and the leather was interestingly fluffed out at the top, almost like they were a fashion statement.
The most realistic part of this vision is the broken stained glass shards in the field instead of crops! What does that mean and where were the crops? Why was there broken stained glass shards covering the whole field?
I can tell from looking at paintings and impression of Smith that he had curlier hair, and in those days it looks like they tried to tame it. He may have also had some Jewish DNA running through his veins, ever so slightly. I am learning that anything is possible, but the human spirit is stronger than we can imagine, and had a sixth sense all its own in my vision of Joseph Smith.
He was standing at the edge of the field of broken stained glass looking at me, just staring, so very strange to me, now that I recall it. Shards of stained glass church windows were strewn across this 100 foot field, and he was standing at one end, and I at the other. But it was the closer part of the field, not the “end field was.
I want to ask you if I really saw something, a vision, while I was under getting my procedures which landed me in the E.R. puking my guts out and 3 days in the hospital! Could I have really seen the Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith? I feel I have seen a figment, or it could have just been my own mind’s urges to see Him. Or perhaps as they say about dreams, everyone in your dream is YOU! And that is a theory too.
What did I see? One of the missionaries dismissed it kindly as ‘a dream, not real.’ But it felt real to me. And I saw what I wanted to see, I saw Joseph Smith, dream or no dream. He didn’t utter a word, just stood there as I have written. That’s it, and maybe as time goes on, I’ll understand. As I typed “as time goes on” the lady on TV said “as time goes on…” right after I wrote it.
Bright
September 14, 2014 at 1:57 am
Celestial marriage has no biblical basis, neither does it make sense.
@Bright — You are 100% correct, in the strictest sense, there is NO biblical record of Celestial Marriage. As an added fact, if this ceremony was so crucial to the “next steps” (from the eternal perspective) then would this not have been mentioned in the 5 books of Moses or in the Inspired version of the Bible…or in the questionable books in the PofGP? Also, the other fact that this was NOT part of the ancient Judeo-Christian religions is that (if you read the Bible) if a women’s husband died, she become the immediate property of his brothers and or next of kin, one of whom she would be married to so as to keep her “ownership” within the family (a celestial marriage would have made this reasoning pointless — so, another example of no Celestial Marriage, even at the time of Jesus). The concept of eternal marriage was strictly another example of the scams that Joseph Smith conjured up and used to justify his own perpetuation of the mystical fraud put-forth by those that had gone before him…the concept of eternal marriage was an old world myth used by certain protestant religious groups as a way to keep couples from having external affairs; therefore, using the ideal of being together and not being alone (after death) as way to force fidelity. Joseph Smith just added one more level to his mystical totem pole for his followers (but it was an idea that existed long before him and example of another plagiarized concept — all of which still has no pre or post-Christian biblical foundation).
All religions of world are all built upon ancient mythological beliefs that are creations of men. So, just as with all mystical forms of traditions and superstitions, so too is the concept of Eternal Marriage…it just is NOT true; any more than things dreamed of in Greek Mythology or any other mystical form of belief and or worship.
Celestial Marriage is central to Mormonism, everything directly / indirectly is centered around that. Its so enticing to our young women, considering the surface significance of virtuosity, and to the men, that a woman would remain ever faithful even till death. But must this require a special temple programming ritual to make them so? Is it Biblical that until one marries, he/she can’t enter into the ‘Highest Glory’? Its absolutely a false doctrine.
How does a member convince / convert a woman, knowing in case she dies, he can marry and seal more, and bring them to live with the single man he married, another woman or more she never knew? but if he dies, she shouldn’t marry and seal another man – if she does, then is it justified that death that caused her to be unfaithful? Even if she can marry for time only as its taught, what if she ends up loving the new man more than the first? Must she remain a widow the rest of her life? or secretly sleep with the Bishop? These answers have never been answered. What if it were you?
It gets more and more complex, because the doctrine is based on man-made illogical reasoning. Its never anywhere in the Bible. God knows the extent of love between couples to make them eternal according to their wish at the resurrection, not by humans, in a supposedly sacred ritual which merely commits them to paying tithes and give their properties to Mormonism, not God of the Bible.
And by the way, how did Joseph Smith translate the book of Mormon? – With a seer stone in a hat, upstairs in a room. There were no physical ‘indiana jones’ gold plates, but divination stones – occultist familiar spirits.
A true story out of several, unsolved.
Posted 10 September 2012 – 02:09 PM
Hi, I’m a young (24 year old) widow. My husband of two years passed away a year and a half ago. I don’t want to break my sealing. I’ve prayed about it in the Temple and feel I shouldn’t. I don’t want to lose my first husband either. I contacted the first presidency and it is confirmed that living women can only be sealed to one man, so unless I break my sealing I cannot be sealed to a second husband (ironically the one I’ll live my life with). This was a policy change that occurred in the 1980’s – they used to allow widowed women to be sealed twice. I recently started dating a guy, but he ended up telling me that he needed to be sealed so it could never work out unless he’s sealed. I’m still really upset about it. Is that really the boat I’m stuck on? I can only marry a divorcee (he’s going to want a sealing too) or widower? I’m an attractive girl, I’ve never had problems getting asked out or asking a guy out. However, getting back into the dating world makes me feel fearful, like I don’t deserve to get remarried because for two years, I already had a good marriage. I want the priesthood in my home for me and my young child, who also needs a righteous father. Guys: Would you date a girl that was sealed? If you were in my situation, can you really blame guys for wanting to be sealed? That’s what we’re taught at conference. “Get sealed at all costs.”
FALSE SELFISH DOCTRINE
@SamCantbeFooled — Sorry for your loss, even if it was a couple of years ago, being alone is not ever easy.
What you are going through is one of the several points that shows (one of the many) kinks in the Mormon mystical system; a system that was born of ancient mysticism and has no foundation in fact. It perpetuates the ancient ideology that women are the property of men; hence, the reason a man can have as many wives as he wants (sealed or otherwise). Built on antiquated ideas in which a woman can only be the property of one man at a time and that that property transcends death. Yet, if “Celestial Marriage” was not a product of Joseph Smith’s imagination, then we would find examples of it in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon — unfortunately, NO EXAMPLES EXIST!
In fact, if you read the Biblical record, the concept of marriage was not one of the first things that the mystical gods revealed…that was something that came later. If it had not come later, then Adam could not have pro-created with his daughters, grand-daughters, great-granddaughters and so on (because he had to first multiply and replenish the world – according the bible). Also, if the concept of eternal marriage had existed, then Jesus would not have answered (when the question was posed to him about who a wife belonged to after her husband died) that she would marry her deceased husband’s brother…because marriage was a contract of ownership, not partnership and (more importantly) it certainly was NOT eternal.
My suggestion is that you find what makes you happy, stop focusing on mystical mumbo-jumbo and find a good man to be your husband in life and who can (also) be a good father to your child and future children. Don’t harness your ability to be free with old-fashioned mythological superstitions that have zero basis in fact — go and enjoy your life, focusing on the things that bring you true happiness then (and only then) will be free and have found bliss.
Thanks William. The feature story was an example I quoted from a real life, existing situation. Thanks for highlighting this man-made central doctrine of Mormonism depriving people of happiness.
@SamCantbeFooled — Thank you for the extra note and, more importantly, connecting the dots. Now I understand the direction of your postings. Too bad more of those living in bubble-land are not able to discover the truth.
Yo, William, what did you think of my vision stuff? You never commented on it.
William
September 15, 2014 at 2:58 am
@globalgodlira — I did not answer because you did not really answer my questions; however, your indirect answers made it quite clear to me that you enjoy the fantasy and the mystical wonderfulness of Joseph Smith. Though I have made it clear that I no longer am part of this or any other religion, I was raised in it and I am very familiar with their story. According to the Mormon message, they claim all things are supposed to bring people to Jesus Christ. Reading through your several messages, including your last one, it almost sounds as if it has all brought you to Joseph Smith.
The Mormon claim is that Joseph Smith translated all of the questionable and or so-called scriptures he created; yet, according to what you implied in your writings, you claim it was all a vision and he just wrote down the visions. Frankly, that would make Joseph Smith and all the witnesses, plus the LDS record on the matter all a lie. (Again, all of which I know is a lie any way so it does not matter that much to me one way or another.)
Your vision / dream / drug induced coma / etc., which you asked me to comment on and which I am sure (to you) all felt very real. That was, unfortunately, a drug influenced hallucination that (based upon what you were thinking of when you were put under) it all fell in line with your last conscious thoughts and fantasizing of Joseph Smith. Examples of this can be found in numerous stories from all over the world, for example: Catholics claim to see a saint or Mary; Jews see Moses or Jehovah; Muslims see Mohammad; Atheists see something that others might say mirrors an astral plain…in other words, people focused on what they want to see, desire or are fantasizing about end up become self-fulfilling prophecies (to themselves) in similar situations.
The reason I call all religions a mystical belief system is because it is ALL based on MYSTICISM; which, if you have not looked it up, it is basically defined as: Belief characterized by self-delusion or dreamy confusion of thought, especially when based on the assumption of occult qualities or mysterious agencies. (Please look it up and research it a bit…you will find that what you say you believe is all based upon mysticism and nothing more.)
Perhaps the Mormon-thing and fantasies of Joseph Smith are fulfilling for you right now — but, just think, ancient religions found within Egypt is what Christianity was later built upon (still all mysticism) — and, sadly enough, the scamming / philandering / fraud (the one you know as Joseph Smith) built upon that ancient story knowing that there is a sucker born every minute…and, what is sad, is the Mormon’s, under the Corporation of the First Presidency, continue to perpetuate that fraud. THAT IS WHY YOU FOUND PARALLELS IN THE BOOK OF THE DEAD AND OTHER EGYPTION STORIES…because it (Christianity) was based upon Egyptian mythology, turned from a story about Horus into a story about Jesus. Joseph Smith latched onto that during his early gold-digging / treasure seeking / grifting days as the best way to become rich and, more importantly, to get women.
globalgoldira
September 15, 2014 at 6:40 pm
Wow William, WOW! I might as well quit the church and forget that since I have embraced it, I have felt closer to God. But I am not close with anyone in that congregation and it is coming quite clear to me now, and by reading your responses, which I do appreciate it. Especially your honesty. At least when I had my endoscopy I awoke and was not like Joan Rivers who never awoke. OMG, I could have been stuck on Joseph Smith’s farm! LOL, so what does broken church stain glass windows instead of crops mean to you? Whatever I saw, experienced, and did, I am Mormon and I’m staying Mormon, it does not matter the congregation “DOESN’T GET ME” and shuns me. It’s not about them, it’s about my God and I. And Jesus Christ. I’m not a dumb girl, I have two degrees. But I see your point in answering my query and post. It’s not easy to explain and I tend to OVER explain which changes the whole sane meaning to why I am Mormon. But I have to say it’s been following me around since I was a little kid. I always was interested in them. Now I am one of them, and I am being shunned by congregation for sure. I know that now. But I will endure and continue to reach for my endowment with or without the congregation. Got my calling the other day, no fanfare and no calls from the girl handling it for the church to tell me anything and it will be going on two days. I thought they’d call or tell me more, but no, nothing. It’s always the same with them. I’m in the wrong ward, I need to be in a more poorer Mormon ward, not the actors and producers of Hollywood. Geez. They are the worst types and that is why I am having a problem with the congregation and feeling one with them and it’s been almost a year. I don’t know what to think. But I do believe in what Joseph said and translated from the Book of the Dead. I did my thesis on Book of the Dead and I understand many symbols that Joseph missed. I see what he was doing. I see God’s words in those scriptures and isn’t that all I should be counting. So what if I’m fascinated by Joseph Smith, So what if people say he was a fraud, and maybe he was, but for me, he’s a springboard for me to a higher level with God. I know what I feel. I don’t feel liked by people, I feel loved by God, God loves the odd and peculiar so I’m in with him and J.C. As for my answer(s) to your query, I say yes, I am in love with all you asked me about. I like them all, mythology, etc. All you said and asked me in your post. So my answer is YES I love it all. All you listed. So if I stay with that ward, I’ll eventually be accepted, it does take much time. I will keep going, even though now I am friendless. Those that knew me before I was Mormon don’t call, and my husband’s friends are all actors and in the biz, so they NEVER liked me. In fact, my eyes are even wider and open now to my husband’s crap and fraud I found out as I progressed with being Mormon. He is fake, he is fairweather and one day I will leave and find a new husband and a new ward. But staying Mormon is my goal. Love the whole religion. I have read much on Joseph Smith and to me, he is my hero. Sorry, but true. You did not lie to me, I don’t lie to you. I thank you for helping me with you words. i now know what is what with all this negative stuff happening to me. Not by God, but by other people either in my life, or running away from it. Bless you and stay always honest.
William
September 15, 2014 at 10:35 pm
@globalgoldira — You do have a way of straying off topic…I guess you already realize that though. I also realize that your last response (about quitting the church) was a bit of tongue-n-cheek humor. In all seriousness, you would be much happier if you did not pursue the Mormon way; of course, everyone must travel their own path in life…so, enjoy the journey.
If you do want to stay involved with the church, then you will need to realize that everything you have shared on this blog you will need to keep to yourself. Regardless of the branch / ward / congregation that you are a part of (anywhere in the world) — if you start sharing any of your personal opinions / dreams / reason for conversion that does NOT align with the Fourfold Mission of the Church; then, as with any corporation, you will be considered non-compliant with LDS dogma and a potential apostate. Your role is to Perfect the Saints; Proclaim the JC Gospel (not the Joseph Smith one); Redeem the Dead, and; Care for the Poor and Needy. Anything else will get you ostracized (at best) and or excommunicated (at the worst). In their Mormon opinions (in which they will surely judge you) having a personal spiritual relationship with anyone else other than JC will make you an outcast…the members will shun you and you will NOT have any visits from the Home Teachers or Visiting Teachers (thought they publicly almost deify Joseph Smith — to most members, secretly, he is a pariah and an embarrassment because of his womanizing and hunger for power / domination).
I do not have time to discuss all aspects of why religions are scams and perpetuators of a fraud…I only have time to show how the Christian religions were a compilation of plagiarisms from the following ancient mythologies and whom entire Jesus Christ fictional story was created from (just to name a few):
• Adad of Assyria
• Adonis, Apollo and Zeus of Greece
• Agni of India
• Alcides/Hercules of Thebes
• Attis of Phrygia
• Baal of Phoenicia
• Bali of Afghanistan
• Buddha/Beddhu of India, China and Japan
• Deva Tat (Buddha) of Siam
• Hesus of the Druids
• Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt
• Indra of Tibet/India
• Jao/Iao of Nepal
• Krishna of India
• The Mikado of the Shintos
• Mithra of Persia
• Odin of the Scandinavians
• Prometheus of Caucasus/Greece
• Quetzalcoatl of Mexico
• Salivahana of Burma
• Tammuz of Syria
• Thor of the Gauls
• Universal Monarch of the Sibyls
• Wittoba of the Bilingonese
• Xamolxis/Zamolxis of Thrace
• Zarathustra/Zoroaster of Persia
Joseph Smith was keenly aware of this and created his own personalized scam, based on his BofM fraud, that bridged with the above stories. The reasons that you feel there is a similar sound to Joseph Smith’s stories is that you already studied a source that he too built upon; that being: Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt — that is why (to you) it has a “familiar” ring to it.
You are seeking answers and striving for enlightenment; hence the broken stained glass from your dream / hallucination…please keep seeking and you will find the truth and, more importantly, it will set you free — BUT YOU WILL NOT FIND THE TRUTH IN THE MORMON CHURCH OR ANYTHING OTHER MAN-MADE RELIGION!
Best of luck on your journey.
SamCantbeFooled
September 16, 2014 at 4:03 am
@ William.
I like your list. But doesn’t it give the impression that the common line connecting all indicates there is an apex, a like likelihood of an original truth or closest clue to that?
@Globagoldira
The endowment is nothing else other than getting you to swear full commitment to the Church. It’s directly borrowed masonic secret binding rituals. Back then without Internet it flourished. Because you will be told never to even discuss with fellow members beyond the temple walls, lest the destroying angel kills you in a gruesome manner. It will also make you a literal slave to your husband, not by choice. . It’s a hypnotically engineered program. I discorvered the truth having gone through all. Honestly i found it hard to believe but it’s the truth. Research it well. It’s a major reason some just can’t quit – fear of the destroying angel. Personally, i took it as a museum visit. It worked.
@William: Wow dude, you are scaring the pants off me!!!!!! I don’t want to leave the Mormon church, I don’t want to be shunned, and I’ve only written articles on my positive things with being Mormon! I don’t think this discussion forum is going to hurt me too much, I already told some people I write on this forum, but I never put down the church, or tried to steer into breaking my silence. There is no silence to break. Once I get my endowment, then I will be very silent. I am only having one problem with this religion, and I’ve said it from the very start: I feel the congregation I am with “does not get me” and I’ve been told by others in that congregation the same thing. But then others say don’t worry, don’t fret, and I still fret, so i thought voicing my qualms on this site without smearing anything but my ignorance to the way of the Church. Most of what I wrote and said may be written out of ignorance and own view of how to get grip on being Mormon. If you read my comments over, you will see I have broken NO LAWS. I do not worship Joseph Smith. Just thanking him and admiring him for bringing it all to our attention, and that was is purpose. I am going to hope that my congregation will not do the things you said above. It’s not so fire and brimstone William. I’m always honest about myself. I’ve mentioned many things to the Missionaries and teachers about my ways and things I do on the net and articles I have written, and they don’t seem that upset, they find it almost comical, and so me! I am am a one mold woman. Meaning the mold was broken when God created me. I’ve always been a public person, but when it comes to certain things in being a Mormon, I speak not of them to you. There’s been a lot that has happened that has been good and brought tears to my eyes. Actually, William the only problem I am having is the Congregation not being as friendly as I had thought or maybe soon in the future when the DO GET ME, I will be embraced. It’s not like everyone is doing it, just most of them. But I am told that is normal. It’s a special ward, not like any other, and the hardest of all to be accepted in, so I am trying, and not trying to say bad. I keep quiet when I have to. But not here!!!! This forum is helping me make my decisions and see other angles and I know that I did the right thing in joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And I plan on telling the missionaries and teachers that I have that I have been writing on this website, and I’m sure they will not approve of it generally, and may even not like what I’ve said, but they will surely tell me to stop writing on here and move on, and I will. But until they do, and until I smear anything, or knowingly do something to piss them off (which I have not) then I will go. But in the meantime, discussion sanely and honestly is good. I will learn what’s right and not right. I have a feeling that in a lot of ways in what you say (if they read this) I may get more shunned or whatever it is I feel is happening. But I have to also say i got my calling, and will perform the duty, and I will do my best to stay in the ramifications of the church. I still don’t know everything about this choice. I am just glad to at least be Mormon. They can excommunicate me for not putting the church down, or ignorance, they can only do good to make me better. I know it. Bless you William, but I do not believe what you say about Joseph being a fraud, and all that sexual mish mash. It’s kind of silly, maybe as silly as me thinking the congregation is shunning me. I was told I would start to fee that as I progressed with it. I am not going to give up on my ward. But thank you for your kindness and open heart to tell me a warning … I just want stay Mormon.
@Globalgoldira — I am sure the LDS church fills some type of void for you…so great, enjoy the fantasy while it lasts.
As I have read through your responses, it all again reminds me of a statement by Carl Sagan: “You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe.” In spite of all the actual deductive evidence that validates all that I have iterated to you…instead, you would prefer to go with a “feeling” and following inductive full suspension of all forms of reason to hold fast to your belief. Therefore, as I said before, knock-yourself-out and enjoy it while it lasts…being comfortable in your ignorance and in spite of the irrefutable facts.
And for anyone else that might read these threads…yes, irrefutable facts that Joseph Smith was a fraud, a womanizer, a philanderer, a plagiarist and a Machiavellian power monger.
Now SamCantbeFooled, I have to say that once I get in the temple and get my endowment I don’t plan on coming back here to spew what happened. I would not say a single word of it. I have already been told, but thanks for explaining. i knew already it was Masonic, I’m no dummy. It’s okay that in my learning curve here, I can reach out for answers, and I’ve got my answers. The angel will never darken my doorway once I get that endowment, all bets are off, I’m in and claiming whatever you said above I have to. And I will not break that. But in the meantime, all I am is a lowly novice who is trying to learn, not be swayed. I’ve been baptized for almost a year, and in that time I’ve had some doubt, but then something wonderful happens to me and I don’t doubt. Now I’m getting closer to the next phase so of course I’m having fears and thinking I’m being shunned. I don’t think that anymore. In fact, I take it all back, I DON’ T FEEL it like that. I understand what is happening. And if anyone from my ward reads this, you know who I am, and you know I mean what I say about being Mormon and staying that way. Maybe they found this, maybe not, but I will be judged, I always knew it. But in the end I shall through God, show anyone, even if they find this forum, which I am sure they have, I am saying that I love them all, and eventually they will come and I will feel better. I’m such a NEWBIE, of course I feel feelings of doubt of myself. I’m not following things exactly like I should, I’m un educated on being Mormon, but will get better. I am now understanding. Thanks William and Sam. Thanks.! I am clear now. i am moving ahead. HEAR ME CONGREGATION of my ward, I AM MORMON AND STAYING THAT WAY! Love you all, love being Mormon. Love God! Thanks J. Smith for bringing things clearer and Thanks William and Sam.
@SamCantbeFooled — No! Sometimes, without studying these ancient mythological tales, some people draw the erroneous conclusion that all of these different themes were intended to forecast the “coming” of a Christ figure; however, if you inspect the respective tales you will quickly discover that they were NOT precursors. Instead, they are all variants of the exact same story (e.g., born of a virgin, started preaching at 30, had 12 special followers, killed and or crucified, arose on the third day, etc., etc., etc.). The story of Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt is an almost exact to the story found in the Four Gospels (pre-dating Christianity by 2000 to 3000 years…along with a mix from Krishna of India and Mithra of Persia. Therefore showing that sometime between 1 to 200 AD, the story was PLAGARIZED from these earlier story’s, mixing in a Judeo theme and thus, the JC version of the same mystical tale was born.
My primary point here is that there was not ever a JC in the biblical sense and there is no historical proof that he ever existed. Even the early Catholic bishops acknowledged that the story of Jesus was a fabrication and the historical records validate this over and over again. In fact, the Four-gospel version of Christ was created many years after the Apostle Paul ever existed.
So, for the Mormon’s to claim they have the only true or the most true and living version of Christ’s church is a lie, the claims made by Joseph Smith are all a fraud (though I am sure in his mind “he” thought it was true – or fooled himself into believing it) and the perpetuation of this and all other Christian religions is a scam that I wish everyone could wake up to see…that is, if they could simply un-suspend their disbelief just long enough to see that it is all a man-made scam.
On your comments to Globalgoldira — you are correct regarding the endowment and temple ceremony. Again, all plagiarized by Joseph Smith from his early days as a Mason. It is an old human fact that if you can wrap people up in ritualistic and secretive routines, they will be more likely to fall for the ruse…of course Mormon’s will say it is “sacred” and the holiest of ceremony’s. If it was a truly divine, restored from the past and or revealed process…then the LDS church would not have changed the ceremony as many times as it has since its inception in the mid-1800’s. Again, just all part of a very elaborate fraud.
@William & @lgaj “I am as angry about the historical cover up and whitewashing. However if the church authorities came completely clean, there would be such massive defections of members that the church would be bankrupt shortly. There would be empty temples and church meeting houses and no missionaries. Rather than push the church off a cliff, the GA’s are lowering it by rope. I am 61 and dying so it doesn’t matter that much to me except that having a faith crisis while suffering a painful death is to me an unpardonable sin committed by the only true and living church. However all the children that we raised and grandchildren will have to eventually suffer through lowering of the rope. Good is not enough for future generations to put up with all the nonsense being a member entails. It only proves to me there is no God. Which things I never would have supposed.”
I feel badly for you, that you are dying at such a young age, 61! What is it that you want them to come clean on, you were a bit muddy in that area. Like a grey area, I’m not getting where your anger is coming from. I’m glad for this site, because I am learning more about my religion, and no matter what you NON BELIEVERS say, it’s all coming from anger and atheist beliefs which has not bearing on my Church, or being a Mormon. You rant and rant about there being no God, maybe your minds are not open to it. Maybe being Mormon is just so out of the box for you guys that you think it’s a fraud. It is NOT a fraud! In fact, it’s the best thing that has happened to me in many years! E.G. I get a call from my mentor, who works at a big movie studio and he cannot find a musician for an event coming up. So I’m called, and before I can say Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I’m on the phone with old pals (still recalling their numbers) and asking them if they knew of such a person. I also placed an ad online and already have 2 lined up for the mentor. The Church teachings that you say are fraud, have made me want to do well, I wanted the strictness and the mystery and the connection of the Book of the Dead, and all of that stuff. I like how the elders where white and black, I like how they made a cool musical play about it, I like how I am in a very special ward geared toward the entertainment business, and I like how I’m thinking lately. I’ll admit I did cry on here about how the congregation at my ward didn’t “GET ME”, well I said, “SOOOOOON they WILLLLLLLLLLL get me,”: so now I’m getting to prove myself. I’ve also been picked to help with another event and have already done my homework. I can’t wait. I’m curious to see how this musician thing works out. We’ll see, I pray better, feel better and now understand why negative things happen, and then the blessings come. AND THEY HAVE come, both neg and pos, mostly pos! Thanks for your thoughts and thanks for sharing. Continue this, I love it. I know where I am and where I stand (the man on TV just said the word “STAND” as I typed it) so that says it all …
@Globalgoldira — All I can say is that you are feeling the connection and power of the human spirit whose power is universal … and (sadly)thinking it is god or the LDS church is an illusion.
I can also tell that you do not really absorb the things that I have shared with you, all of which is documented fact — and it is not made up hate speech and or a disgruntled spewing of a former member. Yet, if you chose the joy of a living a lie then you must juxtapose it against the pain of discovering the truth.
You appear to be happy and, as I have stated before, sometimes ignorance is bliss…so, please enjoy your happiness while it lasts. Just be forewarned that when the bubble bursts for you, that the fall will be hard.
@Globalgoldira
I have been reading through ur comments. You once told Bright he wasn’t bright enough, eveb though his eexpression of opinion never made such direct statement to you. Who is angry here? Many have been through where you are now, and probably, will be. But it’s not about telling you to quit Mormonism. No. Its about truth and how you cchoose to use it. A belief system keeps rising as others die. Its all good. But for what i for example came to discover, that i was told sweetened facts to get me baptised, and on dicovering what history has proven, its like having a blood oath with a lover who came to you with total lies. It hurts, if not more. True worshippers worship in spirit and truth, not just what you choose to believe, but what the truth actually is. Believing a lie never turns it into truth. Some still believe humans live on the sun and moon. Its normal, and all good for our progression.
All I was trying to say here is that the congregation at my ward never CALLS me, never INVITES me to their homes, there is no social activities. I did help on two events, and when those events ended, no one paid any attention to me, nor spoke to me or called me afterwards. Also, the missionaries got very strange when by chance they showed up on a day i did not expect them. I did not answer the door, nor phone, and they even climbed over my fence and screamed my name in the street! Why? I don’t know. Both of them are gone now. Also, I’m thinking about leaving not because of the beliefs, but because of the congregation, PERIOD! The congregation turned out to be so far from me. At the events, no one talked to me, I got no credit, and the man who I thought was in my corner suddenly disappeared. I have no close ties there, no one seems to dig me. I am totally upset and depressed. If only they’d accept me. Call me, invite me out, be my friend, but No, now I have no friends. I am alone all the time. I am sad and I am down. But I love God and J.C. What can I do?
@globalgoldira — That should be a SIGN to you that it is time to leave this “clickish” organization that, as you should know by now, is NOT true. In the mythological works you call the scriptures, the mystic JC told that the way people would “know” his followers was by their “love” they showed “one to another” — isn’t that a sign to you, at least based on what you have written?
Regardless of which branch, ward or stake that you attend (or any other Mormon / LDS congregation) you will be treated exactly the same; because you do not fit “their” model of an ideal Mormon. You can forget ever getting a temple recommend and entering their secret houses that they classify as scared places for eternal salvation (via their works for the dead).
The Mormon’s have an ideal model for the perfect Molly Mormon…and, based on your series of responses, I would deem that you are not fitting into the cookie-cutter ideal LDS woman model. The Relief Society group obviously are estranged to you, the Young Women and Primary are uncomfortable with you being a teacher…the Visiting Teachers are weirded-out by your stories and the Home Teachers are uncomfortable being seen entering your home.
I am sorry that I am not painting a very positive picture for you…but this is much more common than you would realize and it is in the top five concerns of Mormon leadership on why people leave the LDS Church, that reason being: The members drive people away!
Your story is heard and similar stories have been shared with the LDS corporate officers many times; however, when there is not a god or JC in place that is truly guiding and governing the church (as the Corporation of the First Presidency would like the world to believe)…well, you can’t control a human ran, human guided, clickish organization that DOES NOT like outsiders (in-spite of what they try to tell the world).
My suggestion to you is to leave, find what makes you truly happy and then you will have found your bliss.
[I am stating all of the above as having been a member for over 40 years, served a mission, held leadership roles, was married in the temple and did all the other card-punching Mormon things. In other words, I am speaking from an “in the know” position (though I have since left it al to find my own personal happiness). It is sad how Mormons treat people and sadder at how many good people they drive away and or that are driven to suicide…another reason why more Mormon women are on antidepressant medications than any other group.]
I wish you all the best and hope you can find what truly brings you a sense of fulfillment and happiness in your life.
OMG, you were right William! I should have listened, but I thought I was doing all the right things. All you said is true. That’s exactly the way they’ve been treating me, especially at the Halloween event when that couple could not find their silver ladle, and I got the impression they thought I stole it. They have driven me away, yes, even the Relief Society, and the teachers, etc. that you mention. All stopped calling and all disappeared. I’m so sad about it. Now I don’t have any friends and am too ashamed to tell anyone that this happened. I was getting ready for church this morning when I got hit by a brick, and decided William is right, this is wrong for me. So I called the missionaries, and told them a big fat lie that I was going back east for a few months, and by the time I supposedly come back, they probably won’t call me, or inquire, hey? Will they still try to contact me, if i told them that I was leaving today on a flight to NY? Will they just stop all communications now? Or will they continue to be phony with me. I think a bit of both, but I won’t go back. Is that how others get away without having to face them and say the lie. I said, “I’m leaving to take care of my sick brother in NY!” The missionaries brought me a gift in a Victoria Secret’s bag, which was very strange in itself. It was candy. I tried so hard to fit in. I was really getting in to the doctrines of that church. I found it interesting. And my relationship with God was better. I had a lot figured out as to why and what is with me. But, well, the congregation again! Why would they do that? If I was studying, and not doing bad, paying tidings, etc. Volunteering, etc. But then it hit me like a brick wall last week. THEY DON’T LIKE ME. They don’t want me. I am depressed, and sad. But not to commit suicide, but I can see how someone like me would do that. My whole life has been so filled with bullies and bad folks making fun of me, and I have strange fingers, strange ideas. I took down all the nice articles I wrote about being Mormon too. I could feel it in my heart, that they didn’t want me. They were all looking at me like I was some monster. Especially the ladies at the church. When I went to the planning meeting, no one looked at me, they were all dressed down in jeans and such. And when we went to the Conference, no one offered to take me, so the missionaries felt bad and took the bus with me in 100 degree weather and sat with me. But later I noticed they brought this lady with them to the monthly meal I cooked them and she hid her meal in a napkin. After that the list never came back my way, so I got that message from R.S. ladies. Why William, why? It’s a neat religion. I had not even gotten close to talking endowment. I just paid my tidings, got my lessons, went to church, and tried to be quiet, but things started to happen to me that were just strange and I thought they were visions. You are right, they didn’t like it. They didn’t like me. End of story. Thanks. This is not the first time this has happened to me. It also happened with a Lutheran church and a Christian Fellowship. Same deal, same shunning, for my ideas and stories which are true and good. But they could not handle it. Thanks again for your honesty and I am sorry if I insulted you and made a fool of myself. I still have God and my cat.
I have been a Mormon all my life. Elders Quorum Secretary, Sealed in the temple, Scout Master, Honorable Return Missionary, Eagle Scout… I have never smoked nor drank nor want to, and I do not have a problem with porn nor want to cheat on my wife.
I left because I studied the history of the Church. I studied all approved Chruch articles and essays… Essays which are hidden in LDS.Org website.
Reasons:
1. The changes in the original version of the Joseph Smith first vision. His original written account.
2. The changes in the D&C and Book of Mormon from it’s original version.
3. Joseph Smith and Polyandry. Poligamy doesn’t bother me, but marrying woman whom were already married to his apposals.
4. The original acct of the B of M is that Jesus and God are one – 1835 version.
5. The Curse of Cain. Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to blacks and Brigham Young took it away.
You have to study people, and you can find in all LDS Church discourses by Brigham Young that the church is false. Brigham Young was an evil man.
I was able to hack it in the LDS Church. I just am too intelligent and studied to find the truth. How dare you say we left because we are wanting to sin or want to cheat on our wives. I actually feel sorry for your wife you stupid little man!
Not to mention…steel and iron (as in refined weapons), oxen and domesticated animals (flocks) etc that are clearly referenced in the Book of Mormon – all of which did NOT exist in the Western Hemisphere prior to 1492, and which is proven and verified fact…Joseph Smith also prophesied that Native Americans were decendents of the Lamanites, which we know for a fact now through DNA – that they are decendents of Asia! Also DNA testing has completely ruled out any Jewish tribe or Jewish connection to any indigenous peoples of South, Central or North America. The Battle Of Cumorah, where thousands died, and to where the Church states there is another “Cumorah” other than the hill in New York, which is located in Central America, have produced zero relics and/or bones etc – nothing. The facts are in the written words Kyle mentions, in Joseph Smith’s personal diaries – and further – you just have to dig in and read what they wrote. And yes Bringham Young was twisted – he wrote more than once that you could not attain the celestial kingdom without being a polygamist – his words!? A prophet’s words!? He also believed that there were people that lived on the moon and the sun – and that they need to be ministered to. His words!! Read and research people!!
A lot of the women are like that, trust me I know how you feel!! I’m a tattooed woman…I’m sure that doesn’t help, but if a man has tattoos they’ll talk to him! Plus I’m not very lady like, tomboy I guess lol.. But I still love making new friends and would never treat or ignore people like they have to me… I’m the type of person that if you smile or say hi to me, we are automatically friends…
What do you all think about Joseph Smith using a rock in a hat to translate the Golden Plates??? Or how Brigham Young took the Priesthood away from blacks. We have false profits in the church which has caused me to leave…
The church hides too much. Study the history people and the history is within the church itself and is true not lies from anti-mormons. The best website is Mormonthink.com…. I left because of the history and I do not want to cheat on my wife, nor do I drink, nor do drugs, and was never offended. I served a mission honorably. You think stepping out of the church, with your entire family being Mormon is easy. It’s easier to stay in the church.
Dieter Uchtdorf, Mormon Leader, Says Church Has ‘Made Mistakes’ And There Is Room For All In LDS Faith
Peggy Fletcher Stack Salt Lake Tribune 10/08/13 08:05 AM ET
SALT LAKE CITY (RNS) It is wrong to assume that Mormons who leave the faith “have been offended or lazy or sinful,” a top leader told members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on Saturday (Oct. 5) during the church’s 183rd Semiannual General Conference.
“It is not that simple,” said Dieter F. Uchtdorf, second counselor in the LDS Church’s governing three-man First Presidency.
Some struggle with “unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past,” Uchtdorf explained. “We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of church history — along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable and divine events — there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.”
“To be perfectly frank,” Uchtdorf said, “there have been times when members or leaders in the church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles or doctrine.”
God is perfect and his doctrine is pure, he said, but human beings — including church leaders — are not.
The German-born Uchtdorf, dubbed by several Mormon commenters as “our Pope Francis,” urged those who have left the LDS faith to come back, even with their doubts.
“It’s natural to have questions — the acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding,” he said. “There are few members of the church who, at one time or another, have not wrestled with serious or sensitive questions.”
Regardless of one’s circumstances, personal history or strength of faith, he said, “there is room for you in this church.”
It’s all right here, by far the best laid out of facts and comparisons EVER! Researched and completed by a lifetime member…All data pulled from leaders and Church doctrine, writings etc. After you read through this comprehensive list, you CANNOT deny the facts – and that Joseph Smith was simply NOT a prophet whatsoever!!
I don’t think many can read Book of Mormon or Book of Abraham and not see the symbolism of it, you cannot read these church doctrines like the Bible is read. Most of what is said has to be really pulled out between the lines of what Joseph was translating and writing and calling doctrine. I feel you have to read it as if you are reading it with a “third eye”, which is the way I am reading it. I see the Egyptian drawings and recognized them from The Egyptian Book of the Dead and although they are how to bury a rich priest, when Abraham got a hold of it, he re translated it, then Joseph translated it, not to total perfection, but enough for us (me) to even have my own translations of what it is, now that we are reading it in the 21st Century. If Joseph had lived in our time he would have had the same translations as I have found through my study. I have worked out my biggest problem with being with the LDS church, I have taken William’s letter and shown my teachers there, they were shocked, but were familiar with the term Molly Mormon! They all had a lot to say about what was said in William’s letter to me when I lamented that the congregation didn’t “get” me. I wanted to print on letter in particular that is from a very important person in the congregation, it has bolstered my faith. But I thank William for helping me see the true light of being Molly Mormon! I’m not going to print the letter just yet though. But I will.
@globalgoldira — As I read your posts I see, more than anything else, a cry for help and or sympathy and, more importantly, acceptance by a group that clearly does not really want you; unfortunately, you will only receive “token” assistance and or attention from Mormon groups (for all the reasons I have already told you). Sure, the members might provide you some temporary attention because the bishop / elders quorum president / Relief Society president told them to do it; however, they will not show up out of true charity of their hearts — it is only because they “think” their salvation depends on it (and only for that reason).
When it comes to your love of Joseph Smith and his writings…all I can say is that you are not the only woman to feel that way. He knew how to Wow women and, even after his death, he still does (just read his true history to understand that). The reasons for Joseph’s success with his writings is that, as many of the best con-artists / frauds / scammers can do is, he was able to mix just enough truth in with his fraudulent “translations” to fool many people. I am sure that your “third-eye” is seeing some of the truth and it is blinding you to the over-all fraud committed by Joseph Smith and his inner-circle. Bottom line, the books have been proven as frauds and even the Mormon Church has admitted to the questionable history of the Book of Abraham, just asking everyone to accept it anyway. The Book of Mormon has been proven a fraud and ALL of the so-called prophets from Joseph Smith to present have attempted to convince everyone that the American Indians are descended from Middle-Eastern peoples; however, DNA testing has 100% disproven that too…beyond all of the archeological and anthropological evidence that has completely shown the BofM to be a fraud.
I can see your strong desire to belong…but I would encourage you to move on to something that is more fulfilling. As I stated before, unless you are “eternal wife” material and fit the both the men’s & women’s concept of a Molly Mormon, they will not ever accept you. Since the first step (for you) is to accept that if you want to achieve the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom, you MUST be willing to be forever barefoot and pregnant….otherwise, in their minds (though they would not say it) there is NO need for you and they WILL NOT waste much time on you.
All the best to you in your search for happiness and eternal bliss.
@William: I read your reply, and that’s all I really want anyways, a little attention, I knew telling them about your post to me would put a bit of fire under their feet, it’s okay, I got lots of calls from other Molly Mormon’s like myself from that church, and it felt good. At least they DID call, they DID respond to me when I became very upset over your post to me. It’s okay, they found your post very amusing and my home teacher was laughing at some it is, especially when you used the term “Molly Mormon”. Maybe you are right, but I also have control over how much I really want to be involved with the congregation now. I had to tell them, show them, to see what they’d do, and they did get off their butts and answer the accusations in your post about them. I find that doing this shows me the real truth. You are right about a lot of things, but I know they DO need me for more than being barefoot and pregnant, i do have a joyous way about me that may be lacking in that Church I attend. Maybe it’s meant for all this to happen, I DO NOT pray to Joseph Smith, I pray to GOD! So I have to say that since I started with this, without being a Molly Mormon, I have gotten much closer to God and Jesus. I really found what I wanted. And if what you say is true, then there is NOTHING I can do about it but continue to go to church, go to class, and play the same game at the Relief Society Meetings, if what you say about how they think of me is true even though you do not know them! We’ll see. I’ll keep in touch. I’m going forward, and will stay with this church until I see for myself that more of what you say about them is true. I don’t worship Joseph Smith. Who cares what it says if it brings me closer to God. I did my thesis on The Book of the Dead, so i feel a closeness to it. So that’s that. We will see if they continue to treat me the way I said and felt, and the way you said of me being a NON MOLLY MORMON! Thanks again for your time. I’m sure we will be in touch. I’m not saying you are wrong, I am just trying to learn.
@William, you were right. They don’t want me. I could tell today when we went to a big conference. This girl and her hubby and child took me, picked me up early and sat me by the exit, and as soon as it was over, we were out the door and in the car and gone! I felt snubbed by so many. So many I knew were dilibertly ignoring me, I could feel the vibes. I’m too much of a coo coo bird, as I first thought, for them to accept. You were more than half right, I don’t fit in. Missionaries stopped calling, people stopped, and my teachers were very stiff and fake with me. Especially the one guy saying you were the bitter one Michael. No it’s them. Not me, or you. It’ them. I’m leaving the church, slyly of course. I will tell them a lie, and just live by it, and by the time my time is up to come back, I’ll not come back and they won’t care or ever contact me again. They know I was a mistake right? I know it. Don’t lie, you have not so far, only they have lied. Not one person from my ward said hi, waved or even smiled, and I saw them. I felt rooted to the spot. I am such a looser to them. I am not a looser, but am one as long as I stay there. So I get whisked out the door and home, and I decide to run errands, I ride bus up to somewhere, then back. I’m coming toward the last bus and there’s this old woman from the church who also was bapitized with me. She was alllll dressed up and said, “Where were you?” I said I was there, were you? She aid (lied) NO, I was not there. But think she was and just hung around talking to everyone whereas I was whisked away. I’m sure others talked about me like “Did you see her trying to get my attention, I felt so badly I had to do that to her!” I felt it. I could smell a rat in the air. Not for God, or Jesus, not even Joseph. I will continue to study that one doctrine I love and not return to the church. I think my hubby agrees. You were right. I feel that old woman was at the bus stop for a reason god showing me what’s what. Right? OK so you are right. Please responsd.
@globalgoldira — Sorry that they treated you as they did and, without sounding as if I am saying “I told you so”…I did warn you.
Mormons try to appear and act as if they are one big huge Christian brotherhood & sisterhood; however, that is ONLY if people fit into a specific type or mold (e.g., Holy Joe, Molly Mormon, etc.). If anyone does not fit their version of what a good Mormon should look like or act like; well, you just don’t fit into the click.
Just remember the LDS church is not true, Joseph Smith was not a prophet and that the Mormon organization is man-made, just as all other churches in the world are.
So don’t feel bad, don’t be sad and don’t lie to them about why you are leaving…simply stop going and, if they do contact you, tell them you are no longer interested.
Best of luck in your journey.
globalgoldira
November 23, 2014 at 10:17 am
I know we’ve spoken about all this before @William, but now I can verily say to you that it’s over now, they got rid of me just like you said. I knew in the back of my mind that they didn’t like me, and I figure that a lot of them probably began complaining to me to the upper level folks at the Church and after awhile they all started to shun me. That is the only reason I can think of why they all of a sudden did this to me. No one has called, only a few emails from my visiting teacher feeling guilty. I realize it all now. What it is that turned them from me. My spirit of the Lord and God is very high and I can take a church doctrine and really tear it apart and see what it says, and I had some very interesting ideas, also, maybe in class I did talk a lot, but it was with the lady who has dementia and maybe she saw it as “trouble” and with that disease you forget who your friends are or that you may have just been joking, so that’s how it began. But it spread so much that people (theory?) started to lightly complain about my ways to maybe the Bishop, so maybe the bishop felt bad, and got the second in command to give me some meaningless task, a calling, but by the time they gave me that, they pulled me out of class, after chapel, and I missed a lot of class and Relief Society stuff, so maybe they did that on purpose to get me away from the congregation, on the request of the congregation. As I progressed from there, it got worse, and lots of folks were shunning me, I could feel it. Some woman even had the gall to call me on the phone and say, “I won’t be coming up to you at the event this weekend, I just don’t want to, but didn’t want to hurt your feelings!” Bullshit! It’s not the religion I am upset with, nor God himself, it’s the congregation, and how phony they became, ever so slowly. Okay? So what do I do now, can you help me deal with the crushing blow of rejection????? Can you stop me from thinking what a fucking loser I feel like now? What would you do, go out and get smashed on booze? Or go to the temple of the devil? I don’t think so! I’m never going back, no matter what they try, and they won’t try a thing, I now know.I’m ahead of them though, I defriended them all on Facebook, and wrote messages to the missionaries that wanted to try and help me and said “Live your life and leave me alone now, it is finished!” Now they will try and get to my husband, whom I also defriended. He’s been rejecting me for months and it has to do with this Church failure. My failure. He’s just not in my corner anymore, and frankly I see a separation soon. But I’ll say this, I will NEVER go to another church again. I’m done. I love God, Jesus, and the earth, but the people on it SUCK! Thanks for your time. Good luck to you, but feel free to respond to this, but try not to gloat too much that you did open my eyes wide. Peace.
@globalgoldira — Please understand that I do not feel proud about “knowing” something is not true nor do I ever “gloat” over pointing out facts to anyway. I am just glad when anyone’s eyes of understanding are opened and they are able to see the truth; regardless of how painful or cathartic that process might be — because it is the knowledge and knowing of truth that sets us all free and reduces the ability of others to exercise control over those without this knowledge.
To me, all religions in and throughout the world, they all are guilty of exploiting peoples lack of knowledge and using that as a form of control, profit making and ultimately (due to the mass amount of peoples being tricked and others accepting of these religious belief systems as fact-based due to their length of existence) that religious leaders manipulate their followers into performing harmful and despicable acts…and, of course, these people are without guilt since they are either on a mission from god or they have sinned because the devil made them do it; therefore, thinking that they can assuage any feeling of guilt because it really wasn’t them (themselves) committing the atrocious acts (‘..god or the devil made me do it..!’).
The reason that I say much of what I have is that I know it is ALL a bunch of BS! You have made the first real step…but, you still mistakenly think or feel that the powers of the universe come from god or his bastard mystical son — has this experience not taught you that it is all a bunch of bologna? Speaking of religion, in any form, I think that the late Christopher Hitchens stated it best when he said: “I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful.” Granted there are times when some people have performed true major acts of human kindness in the name of their mythological gods; but, you must admit that the extent of horrific things done in the names of those same mystical gods darkens the historical record from the beginning of recorded time to the present (just turn on the news).
You have most likely realized that I am an atheist that sometimes borders on anti-theism…but I do not feel I am quite in the same vein as the “new atheists”, such as Richard Dawkins, Reza Aslan and Sam Harris (to point to a few) — whom have said things about religion such as: “[it is] one of the world’s great evils”. They say often that religion is as bad as smallpox and worse than rape and that religion is a form of child abuse; that it is “violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children” — much of which, from a historical perspective, is true about all forms of religion.
So, why did I say all that I did above, so that you would realize that my views are not only about Mormons, my views are the same towards all religions and the beliefs in mystical deities and reverence for beings that DO NOT exist. Religionists (Joseph Smith included) devise some of the most sophisticated scams and forms of fraud that cause both simple minded and educated people to consider them as real — and why is that? A scammer / huckster / griffter / etc…can spot a weak soled person from a mile away. These scam artists will strike at the heart of these people’s weakest points and, voilà they have hooked another looser! Even Mormon missionaries are trained at doing this without realizing they were trained to do it — they go to the Missionary Training Center (MTC) to learn how to teach, all the while they are really being trained on how to get people to buy into BS …hook, line and sinker..!
I am truly sorry for any pain that your experience has caused you and, for a while, it will tug at your spirit and pull at your heart strings…but, in the long run, you know in your heart you will be stronger for it and come out on the better side as you continue to look for your happiness on the path to finding bliss. All the best in your journey!
@Michael Mormon who runs website for doubting members ousted
Associated Press
BRADY McCOMBS
February 10, 2015
SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — A Mormon man who gained notoriety over the past decade for running a website that offers doubting Latter-day Saints a forum to chat has been kicked out of the religion.
John Dehlin announced the decision from regional church leaders Tuesday. He becomes the second high-profile church member to be excommunicated in the past year in what Mormon scholars consider to be the Utah-based faith’s way of keeping dissenters in line.
A regional church leader in North Logan told Dehlin in a letter that Mormon officials made a unanimous decision to excommunicate him for apostasy, defined by the church as repeatedly acting in clear public opposition to the faith.
While not a lifelong ban, excommunication is still a rare move that amounts to the harshest punishment available for a church member.
The letter from Bryan King says Dehlin is being kicked out not because he doubted and asked questions about church doctrine, but because he made categorical statements opposing the faith that were disseminated on his website. King wrote that Dehlin’s actions have led others to leave the faith.
“I acknowledge your right to criticize the church and its doctrines and to try to persuade others to your cause,” King writes. “But you do not have the right to remain a member of the church in good standing while openly and publicly trying to convince others that church teachings are in error.”
The decision comes two days after Dehlin met with church leaders in a four-hour disciplinary hearing.
Dehlin, 45, hoped he wouldn’t be excommunicated but told church leaders he could not in good conscience stop operating his website, Mormonstories.org.
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints spokesman Eric Hawkins said in an email that the church might comment later. Church leaders have not publically discussed the specifics of Dehlin’s case.
The move is likely to send ripples through the Mormon community. It comes on the heels of the June ouster of Kate Kelly, founder of a group pushing for women to be allowed in the religion’s lay clergy.
Scholars say Kelly and Dehlin are the most high-profile examples of excommunication proceedings since 1993. That year, the church disciplined six Mormon writers who questioned church doctrine, ousting five and kicking out a sixth temporarily.
To supporters, Dehlin is a hero who has risked his standing in the faith to create a much-needed forum where church members could openly discuss sensitive or controversial issues about the faith. About 200 supporters held a vigil for Dehlin on Sunday night outside the church building where his disciplinary hearing took place.
To his detractors, Dehlin is a Latter-day Saint who long stopped believing in the faith’s core tenets and has orchestrated and manipulated his situation to be ousted and earn more attention.
“Dehlin’s choices forced his local leaders to take steps to protect their adherents from one who not only ceased to believe, but who actively sought to have others embrace his disbelief,” said Scott Gordon, co-founder of MormonVoices, an organization that supports the LDS church.
Dehlin is a married father of four who has been a Latter-day Saint his entire life. He is a doctoral candidate in psychology who previously worked in the high-tech industry.
@William, you were right. They don’t want me. I could tell today when we went to a big conference. This girl and her hubby and child took me, picked me up early and sat me by the exit, and as soon as it was over, we were out the door and in the car and gone! I felt snubbed by so many. So many I knew were dilibertly ignoring me, I could feel the vibes. I’m too much of a coo coo bird, as I first thought, for them to accept. You were more than half right, I don’t fit in. Missionaries stopped calling, people stopped, and my teachers were very stiff and fake with me. Especially the one guy saying you were the bitter one Michael. No it’s them. Not me, or you. It’ them. I’m leaving the church, slyly of course. I will tell them a lie, and just live by it, and by the time my time is up to come back, I’ll not come back and they won’t care or ever contact me again. They know I was a mistake right? I know it. Don’t lie, you have not so far, only they have lied. Not one person from my ward said hi, waved or even smiled, and I saw them. I felt rooted to the spot. I am such a looser to them. I am not a looser, but am one as long as I stay there. So I get whisked out the door and home, and I decide to run errands, I ride bus up to somewhere, then back. I’m coming toward the last bus and there’s this old woman from the church who also was bapitized with me. She was alllll dressed up and said, “Where were you?” I said I was there, were you? She aid (lied) NO, I was not there. But think she was and just hung around talking to everyone whereas I was whisked away. I’m sure others talked about me like “Did you see her trying to get my attention, I felt so badly I had to do that to her!” I felt it. I could smell a rat in the air. Not for God, or Jesus, not even Joseph. I will continue to study that one doctrine I love and not return to the church. I think my hubby agrees. You were right. I feel that old woman was at the bus stop for a reason god showing me what’s what. Right? OK so you are right. Please responsd.
Very informative- however this list is not actually comprehensive–it’s just those things you could point to that make the decision to leave look appropriate for the person leaving
It’s like those internet quizzes where no matter how you answer the questions you end up looking good eg, you are the CEO! There is another list where the person did not fees their testimony and lost the spirit. Then any little thing on this list could be the excuse to leave
@laddmorgan — You are correct in the sense of that in the more modern definition of the word “comprehensive”, being that it would comprise or hold “all elements or aspects of something…” and by that definition, this site is not comprehensive. However, if you look at the definition in its more archaic form, that being: “…of or relating to understanding…” understanding in the sense of a comprehensive list of reasons that you and others (from a personal perspective) have left the Mormon church, then based on that archaic definition, this site is comprehensive.
This site has proven interesting to read and has proven to be more about what makes someone leave — which some do define their reasons as either sin based or use the cliquish Mormon way as the reason they feel driven away. It is sad that more do not comment on the fact that, through intensive study and research, they have discovered that the LDS church is not true; which was the reason that I left this church: I learned, on my own, that it was a well-conceived scam and those that are in its leadership continue to perpetuate the fraud — all of which is quite sad. Sadder in the way so many believe in it and think or feel it is true…that is the saddest part of all.
In fact my intensive research has helped me to discover that all world religions and local cults are man-made and have zero foundation in anything heavenly whatsoever. My journey of discovery has truly set me free and helped me to realize that there is no heaven above or hell below…there is no god, at least in the man-made version or interpretation (as most would know it) and has led me to being 100% atheist.
Well, I have to say off the cuff and in a sidebar that Michael was totally right about what would happen to me when I joined the LDS Church last year. I really loved the whole deal and the interesting mix of Jewishh and Masonic religions = Mormon! But as time went on, and the months went by, I began to relax a bit and started to involve myself in some activities like feeding missionaries, helping with events, etc. But that’s when I noticed the shunning and the fact that I was be isolated. It was stemming from the Women’s Relief Society, which I never liked anyways, but those women did exactly what Michael said they would do, and ever since I got wise to their antics I have been depressed, sad, sick and shocked over it. Only one idiot from that church now contacts me, the guy that was my main teacher, he is feeling guilt I’m sure he is. I met with Bishop and talked to him about how some lady at our ward came up to me and said, “The congregation doesn’t get you!” Then a few months later she calls me on the phone to tell me she won’t talk to me at the conference if she or I see her or me, and she wanted to call to let me know so she would not hurt my feelings. I went to the conference with my home teacher, and that was the last time I saw her, no calls, just brought me in, and rushed me out, as the whole ward seemed to be shunning and not looking my way, so i knew at that moment, it was over. As time passed since that October day, I have not returned, just emailing back and forth with the main teacher idiot. It’s not the religion of LDS I am sad over, it’s the PEOPLE in that ward. Michael warned me and I listened but forged ahead so I could find out for myself, which I did. I believe more in God now and feel so much closer to him and Jesus Christ than ever before, but unfortunately I was not liked at my ward! I am getting a negative complex of myself and have stopped enjoying things or going out. I’ve isolated myself and my own husband of 13 years is doing now what the ward did to me over a period of many months. I was not blind to it, I just ignored it until there were just too many doing it, and then now I don’t go anymore, also, I got a few calls from a few women, but I never called back. FAKE! It’s not the religion, I have gotten much learning out of the church doctrines I’ve read and are reading, but it is the people that ruined it, and the Bishop took NO ACTION against that one girl that told me all that crap. Just wanted to let you know.
I’m a member and wouldn’t leave but I do think the majority of the women I’ve met in the church are snobs..not all of them but almost all the ones I’ve come in contact with… You see them out in public and they pretend not go see you or totally avoid you… Happens all the time even though the prophets have asked us to be kind to one another… What’s weird is the men are so nice and considerate!
I attribute much of that to the church itself. They have consistently blamed the man for divorce, poverty, or unhappiness within a family. This is rarely the case. Fact is, there are very, very few good women within the church. They go for money first and foremost, followed by the desire to spend lavishly while never working themselves, followed closely by playing the role of eternal victim instead of eternal wife.
This shunning I felt had nothing to do with God, the church doctrines or the church of LDS. It had to do with the ward I was in, it was not the right one for me. I am closer to god because I was baptized the right way, in the Mormon way, I wanted to be part of it, but because I embraced BOOK OF ABRAHAM and could really read more into it than anyone in that ward of actors, producers and snot head Relief society women! They got so scared. One woman took me aside after hearing me talking about the symbols in Book of Abraham, which was God talking to me. I use Book of Abraham to get closer to God, he speaks to me through that doctrine! I love god and feel so much closer, and have kept a notebook called “LETTERS TO AND FOR GOD” and everything I’ve written in there has come true thru God. I learned earlier on in that ward how to pray to God and get what I want out of him. He in turn gets a lot out of me now too. I am studying alone, do not go to church. The Relief Society disliked me. Some of the women thought I was a bit of a ROGUE, but they were afraid I’d know more than they did. They were afraid of me. They all started to shun me, not everyone, but the important ones. Also, a girl kept coming up to me and saying “The Congregation doesn’t get you and they never will!” So i knew then. And when I went to get involved in meetings and activities I noticed it the most. My own visiting teacher shunned me as well as people I thought liked me. They moved away from me, one old woman said she was so jealous of me because I could read the scriptures and know more than most do, underlining the parts that pertained to me. She loved how I did it. I can read and get answers from God himself, and Jesus. I plan to publish my book about going through the process of being inducted, baptized, went to Mormon temple, and paid my tidings, etc, and how things declined, and through it all my relationship with God increased. He does speak to me in my subconscious mind, I feel him in my life more than ever, like he never left, and he didn’t. But I will NEVER go back to that ward, but am looking for a new one, and studying on my own. What saved me and showed me that the shunning was going on was “DOCTRINE & COVENANTS PEARL OF GREAT PRICE”. I read it every day and have learned so much more than even Joseph Smith knew. Lots of his notes on the Egyptian drawings Abraham drew were WRONG, or off, he was on the right track, but I filled in the blanks and spoke in great length with the Bishop, my teacher, some in the congregation and of course the missionaries. I learned that missionaries and elders are not cracked up to what I perceived them to be. I was hurt and ran away from the ward, not the LDS church. I love being Mormon, and one day I will find my place. In the meantime, I am close to God because of D/C’s Pearl of Great Price. I have learned much about myself through that book. I love it. Thanks for your interest. I will find my way back in.
I was a Mormon for 30 years…its a great social club but as I have read early church history before 300 AD it became obvious that Joseph Smith had no idea what the original church was like when he tried to restore it. I have found the most authenticity in the eastern orthodox church…wish I would have read Eusebius and the early church writers along time ago
@Suzanne — Actually, the early founders of the ancient churches built upon plagiarized stories taken from the following much more ancient mythical stories (just to name a few):
Krishna
Odysseus
Dionysus
Heracles
Glycon
Attis of Phrygia
Horus
So, in other words, there was not a historical Jesus and Bishop Eusebius knew that…it was a fabrication built upon mystical systems as a way of control. For Joseph Smith to create something from that just shows he was good at perpetuating the original scam or fraud.
Once you realize there was no Jesus, then it puts all the other data into perspective.
Hope you can find your truth.
Hi Suzanne. Joseph Smith realllllly did know a lot more than most back then who were trying to create religion. Fortunately Joseph was close to the land and knew things that others did not. He was a man of the land, and a metal digger. He should have been a treasure hunter, but he did restore the church in the only means he could, what he knew of God and what he heard from God. I think what he did was spectacular, and he did not make the congregation, he made the religion, and I must say that although I’m no fan of the Women’s Relief Society at my first ward, does not mean Joseph Smith didn’t know what he was doing. I love the way of LDS, I love how they worship. And although the first ward congregation “didn’t get me”, I just found another one after consulting with God for 6 months. Now I understand better. I have to keep my big mouth shut and no more TMI, and I think you Suzanne should read Doctrine & Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, which showed me so much about Joseph being on the right track. If he were in our time, he would have been a hero to all. Better read other stuff, and too much read on net mixes you up. Good luck.
@globalgoldira — Not sure where you keep digging up this crap about Joseph Smith — the man was a crook, a fraud and a pedophile. All he did was come up with a way to build upon peoples stupidity by taking the existing Christian scam and creating his own elaborate fraud based upon that scam. You do need to study this stuff out (as I have suggested to you before) instead of spouting things that are not factual.
To have a church requires a god and, there is no god or Jesus — so that makes the LDS Church just another twist on the same mystical fantasies.
@William Now now William, if you believed in a God, then you’d believe more in Joseph Smith. I had trouble this year staying at the Ward I was attending, and just left the scene, and I used a lot of these posts here to create emails that I sent myself and then showed my visiting teacher and Bishop of that ward I used to attend. They acted exactly as you said they would, but using your posts or making them seem like emails to me personally REALLY scared them at that one ward I no longer go to. I have to thank you Michael, because of you I was able to see through some rage and anger of my own. Were you molested by a Mormon? Or like me SHUNNED and abandoned by a congregation like I was? It was the evil side trying to entice you to where you are now. I am no angle, nor no scribe nor do I wear the badge of a genius but I did learn something grand about God when I started coming here and reading your posts to me. So because of coming here, I was able to actually step away from the snotty ward I was in, and move to a better with the congregation and missionaries and higher uppers not bothering with me like many said they would if I tried to leave! I was told they would not let me go, make me reconcile, but I used your posts as emails and sent them to myself and it looked like they actually came from some of the jerks from that ward I was in at first. Six or seven months passed, and we come to NOW, and I found a new ward that looks so much better. Not as big, not as rich, not as poles stuck up their asses, like at the old rich ward. So I am at peace with my decision. AND, about Joseph Smith, I find he and I have a lot of the same good qualities. You only see the bad, I see the bad of what he did, yes as a youth he was not a good guy, and he did have odd ways. But I know a few things that happened to him to even make him turn to religion even if you think it was for his own gain. Maybe 1 percent of it he may have thought for his own, since he was always made fun of for his odd beliefs. I found out that the reason Mormons marry multiple wives or did do it, was to honor and live as close like the father of the Jews ABRAHAM!!! Abe had a lot of wives and God told him to do it. So Joseph Smith’s clan decided to do that, and it’s not done anymore anyways. If it was or is, than it’s the fundalmentalists like that idiot they just made a movie about who had a bunch. I think you need to see some good things Joseph did. He saved my ass, and I was led to his book of Abraham which I love and still read every day, it’s my shield. Sorry you are so mad. But i do know this, I pray for you and thank you for continuing to write me. By the way, thanks for those gloriously raging posts you sent last year! They helped me find my way to the right ward.
globalgoldira,
I can see where you are coming from. I attend church but do so not as a religion but as a congregation working together to somehow make sense of the people around me. To be a part of something good is empowering and satisfying. However for a man such as Joseph to do the things he did and still proclaim to be of God is deplorable. What has become of the things he organized is truly amazing. The settling of the American West, one of the largest Welfare programs in the world, an organization of millions of faithful, and many other things. So the “church” does some great things whether in deceit of the members or not. The majority of the members just don’t want to know the history of the church in fear that what they have heard is true. I was there until I realized that the people are good people with or without the church. I have long believed that good people want to do good despite religion. Not everyone has to fear GOD to do good things.
I see great people doing great things that bring them happiness and ultimately life is about finding a place you can be happy as well as make others happy. Will I ever tell my neighbors, friends, bishop, wife or children that I don’t believe the doctrines of the church? Who knows but for now as long as I don’t have to lie to anyone or deceive anyone I am happy living my life like this. I don’t see making it very far though without having to tell someone. At some point I will be asked to teach a class or take on responsibility that will require me to express by beliefs and that is where I will not lie to others or myself.
To all of those shaking your heads saying I am not being true to myself all I have to say is there is no truth only what a person sees through the eyes of his own life’s experiences. Reality is only seem from one perspective no matter how hard we try to see it through another’s eyes. Where ever you find happiness stay there. Don’t stand for deception and be brave enough to step away when the consequences are a choice between your happiness or the happiness of another. If you need a GOD to be happy chose a benevolent one, if you need a savior to motivate you to continue being a better person make it a humble one, and if you need inclusion and friendship find it with those who care about who you are and not what you believe.
@globalgolderia — The pursuit of happiness and bliss is usually or should be the goal of all humans; however, when we “think” we have found what makes us happy and later discover it is built upon a lie or other dishonest foundations — is that true happiness? Or is it a perceived sense of happiness that can never really bring any sort of eventual joy (because it was a lie in the first place). That is why Mormons make no sense to me; that being, that even when they do discover what Joseph Smith was all about and the fraud he perpetuated upon his followers (made more evident by the LDS Church’s recent releasing of the truth behind the seer stones that Joseph used to commit acts of fraud)…the Mormon followership will still continue to believe in the lie because of their deep need to have something to justify their belief system. Just as Friedrich Nietzsche said: “Sometimes people don’t want to hear the truth because they don’t want their illusions destroyed…” that is how so many Christians and especially Mormons function. And, in my opinion, there is nothing more sad than people that happily live a lie due to their lack of inner strength or charisma nor a real desire to discover the truth and the courage necessary to live that truth.
Dave
July 14, 2015 at 12:22 pm
I am astounded at the circles people try to navigate when giving testimony about the LDS Church. It is as empirical as this: TRUTH. There can be only one truth by definition. Joseph Smith was a con artist, charlatan and sexual predator. In order to believe Smith one would have to suspend all cognitive, critical thinking. Everything Smith did was a lie and the Church is a lie. It is morally unconscionable to lie to children and promote a religion that can easily be shown to be fraudulent.
@Dave — Excellent response and you hit the nail squarely on the head! Though I agree that is sad so many Mormon’s are not able to wake up from their slumber, I am quite confident that the reason is they are afraid to have their illusion destroyed and (even more scary for them) is they are terrified of discovery they have believed in / followed / preached a lie all of their lives. I think that Friedrich Nietzsche said it best when he stated: “Sometimes people don’t want to hear the truth because they don’t want their illusions destroyed.”
Thanks for the post!
I feel like I’m in and then I’m out, then in then out, then shunned, then new ward, then accepted as a Molly Mormon, then Joe Mormon saunters over and flirts with me, then I do my testimony and the next thing I realize is I’m not in class, but hanging with the ladies in the church library. LOL, but in the end it’s not about what or why Joseph Smith was Joseph Smith, he brought something special to others who were good people and expounded on his idea.
@globalgodira — Why are you still wasting time with this church? Joseph Smith did not do anything spectacular other than commit fraud by plagerizing stories that already existed or just by simply copying other ancient mystical stories (hence I that is why I believe you “think” the Pearl of Great Price “sounds” like it mirrors stuff found in the Book of the Dead — he just expanded on the mysticism is all). Joseph Smith was a philandering pedophile that was chased from state to state for fraud, sexual deprivity, scam operations, larceny and finally destruction of a free press, feeding upon his visions of grandure; which we was about to fulfill by building the largest army in North America (at the time) for which we was planning to use in support of his US presidential asperations. Why is it so difficult for you to see him for what he was and understand that the LDS church is a corporation only that was built upon a lie?
@William How do you know so much William. You rant and rant about Joseph Smith, and wow, nothing happens to change how I feel about him. I identify with Joseph Smith, and told you already that I know what he did wrong and right. What he did for me was bring me something to communicate with God better. Before I even knew it, in college, 35 years ago, I had Egyptian figures painted on my wall and I minored in Egyptian History and I learned so much about Book of the Dead, and when I saw what Joseph did, wrote and translated, I found myself with this gift, I pray, ask God to help me understand why this or that is happening and depending on what date it is, I go to that section. Say it was July 4th, I’d go to Section 4 of D/C and read into what it said then find my answer. It’s happened to me so many times that I use what Joseph wrote as a tool and mix it with my own history on what I know about Egyptian culture and such. SO I am able to actually translate more than what Joseph and the book itself is saying. I see the big circle as the life of Jesus Christ birth to wandering to dying on the cross to rising again in that one diagram. It’s amazing. So it’s not really being Mormon, not being Mormon, being Molly Mormon, or Joe Mormon, it’s about the understanding of what LDS Mormon means: It’s this: 1. Jewish 2. Masonic Temple and 3. Egyptian. I can see it, some call it Viking too, about Jesus being here in the Americas too. So says Book of Mormon. SO I am a bit a rogue Mormon now. I have been going to the new ward, but I do notice I am being shunned by a few. But they are hurting for congregation and the Bishop is helping me get more comfortable with the Relief Society, so I’m on my way to peace. That’s all I seek, and I love reading Mormon doctrines like D/C Pearl… I will continue to pray for you William, but even if I go to any ward, or don’t go to any ward, or don’t go to Conference, or whatever, I am with God better than I have ever felt in my half century on this earth.
@globalgoldira — Well, I guess if it makes you happy, then the fact that it is all mystical hypocrisy shouldn’t matter then. Granted, mystical belief systems have helped the simple minded peoples of the world feel good for centuries — but as factual discovery has shown and the massive lack of any tangible evidence has proven, mysticism is nothing more than peoples’ need to believe in something and using mythological justifications for living in a way that is quite obviously a lie.
If that brings you comfort (believing in a lie) then all I can say is: Be Happy…and I hope the Mormon / Christian lie brings you a sense of Joy!
Heath James, Sr.
November 3, 2015 at 2:30 am
I left the church today. Last night I received a little nudge from the spirit to question whether my church leaders are wrong to assign me, a recent convert, as a primary teacher which takes up time I would rather be spending in gospel principles class or whatever so I can learn and grow. I never believed the book of Mormon was true but felt that its message must surely have value. I began to read the BOM searching for an answer to the question, “What value does BOM hold for me?” After working in the BOM for about an hour I realized that not only do I not believe BOM is true, but that its message has no value at all. There is simply no meaningful life lessons in BOM that you can’t already find in the Bible. I realized the BOM was entirely unnecessary in that it did not add anything to the gospel found in the bible at all. Then I finally confessed to myself that I also don’t believe that attending the temple is necessary to get to heaven. I do not believe in the ordinances performed in the temple are necessary to seal you to your family forever. The church just wants you to think that so they can control you and make you pay tithing and be temple “worthy”. That’s when it hit me that the contract between God and man is based on agency or free-will meaning that when I make a right choice that honors God I do so because it is the right thing to do and I do it of my own free will. The LDS church robbed me of that agency, that free-will. They tell me what to think and what to believe and I must obey those orders lest I be found unworthy to receive my temple recommend. That would mean I could not be sealed to my family and live together forever with them. So I must hand over my free will to the church and blindly follow their orders. I must also depend on the bishop to decide if I am worthy of attending the temple. For the past two years, I have been out of work and am so poor I cannot pay tithing.. My family literally lives paycheck to paycheck and are often broke before payday and have to go without. The church doesn’t care about my situation at all. They insist that I pay my tithing or I I can’t be sealed to my family. So what I learned is that God has already promised he would provide for my spiritual needs. In fact, I have a God-given right to be judged only by my creator on judgement day as to whether or not he will let me into Heaven when I die. I don’t need to convince some priest that I am worthy enough to enter the sacred temple and then receive an ordinance guaranteeing me I will be with my family forever. God has already promised that my family will be together. All we have to do is live a good life and make it into Heaven and we will be together forever.. See, by allowing my fellow man to determine my so-called worthiness I am denying myself of my God-given right to be judged directly by my creator. Not only that but the priesthood itself has removed God entirely from his involvement in determining my worthiness. The priests and bishops have taken it upon themselves to act on behalf of God in all matters concerning the judgement of man. I must meet their requirements for worthiness and then beg them to perform additional ceremonies to get me and my family into heaven. That is a Godless proposition altogether, isn’t it?That’s when I realized that I don’t need to defer to the bishop to have my worthiness evaluated and I don’t need to attend the temple with its phony sessions and rituals to get into Heaven. I am taking back my agency or free-will as some call it and I am going to exercise it every time I make a right choice or do something to honor God’s glory. In the LDS church I was simply making choices out of fear of being found unworthy to attend the temple.If I follow the ridiculously long 137 or so chapters of the D&C I won’t ever need to use my own free will ever again as long as I do everything exactly the way the church says to. BUT, I don’t think God intended mankind to be separable from their agency.So today I took it back. I will never again allow my fellow man to asses my worthiness or my goodliness. I will use my agency and I will do the right thing even when I think nobody is looking just because it’s the right thing to do and I will let God judge whether or not I am worthy to get into Heaven. I will never again associate with men who usurp God’s authority to judge a man’s worth and then create false rituals to guarantee that man eternal life.I also don’t need to be sealed to my wife/kids in the temple to be with them forever. God has already promised this to me. In fact, he did so on my wedding day when I stood before him and promised to have and to hold and honor and cherish my wife in sickness and in health for the rest of my life. AND as long as I keep that promise I will be with her forever in Heaven. AND as long as my kids are good enough to get into Heaven they will be there too, forever! There is simply no need to go through a priesthood holder and the temple to receive the promises God has already given me. But by giving up my agency, I empower the church to insert itself between myself and God so that I cannot get to the lord but by them and then only if I live the way the tell me to. I’m done with the church. It’s amazing how I only pulled out one card and the whole stack just tumbled right down after it. Couple that with the fact that Joseph Smith was convicted of using seer stones to locate coins, gold and silver for fraudulent purposes 4 years prior to the date he records find the seer stones along with the BOM in the side of a hill and we have a documented case of smith falsifying his autobiography to conveniently omit his arrest and conviction for conning poor dumb locals to pay him to locate buried money on their land. He is a liar. He fabricated the BOM with the help of others and Mormonism is not a true religion. Furthermore when church leaders lie about the origins of our faith or allow a known lie to continue they forfeit their own priesthood and temple worthiness and are disqualified from using their priesthood power to judge my temple worthiness.
All you say makes sense to me except Doctrines & Covenants Pearl of Great Price! THAT BOOK HAS helped me deal with all my stress over being shunned by my ward, and with problems I have had. This is how it works: You pray to god about whatever it is bothering you, then you wait and then turn to a section that most relates to maybe your birth date (last 2 digits) or the date you are praying. I did this, I asked God: GOD, tell me why my family is so against me? I turned to a few different sections relating to my family in numbers. I turned to SECTION 31 (the age my own mom gave birth to me) and after reading it I was amazed, the answer was there as to why they were doing it. You have to take what it says and pretend God is talking only to you. ONLY D/C not BOM, which is a history book. YES, I do believe in the message of BOM, but I was shunned from two wards for talking to much about what I was seeing in D/C. So bad, I had to leave. I did. But, I know there is God and Jesus Christ but it was the PEOPLE in the ward that caused the problems, thinking I was off my rocker, being so new in the church but I was right. I’ve been referring to D/C now for 2 years, and you should see it. It’s all underlined and the messages ARE TO ME, even though in some sections they are referring to Joseph, or Elders, or whatever. I saw my message veiled in between the different paragraphs. AMAZING how much closer to God and Jesus I became when I joined LDS, but it’s the people in the congregation that didn’t “GET ME” or “ASKED ME TO DO THIS OR THAT”, but you always have your freewill, God doesn’t take it away, it’s the people who you are with that do it. So I quit going to temple, and just use D/C for my guide. And should re think D/C and try and use it to pray on whatever … What you asked. And turn to a page or section that matches your question, and read closely and much of it is veiled because the enemies and naysayers of the church will not taint it and bring you down. Most of the congregation did not like me, labeled me, and gave me stupid callings. But this D/C book is the most profound I’ve ever read and I am referring to it. Pay particular attention to BOOK OF ABRAHAM which is based on Egyptian myth, but the sketches in there are not of Abraham, it’s Jesus Christ, and they were drawn 2500 years before Jesus walked the earth, To me, that’s all I need. Forget the wards, love God, and follow D/C and start praying using that as your tool and you will feel the power of god. Read it while the TV is tuned to CNN and you will see how the tv will start to match what you are reading to a tee. It’s amazing. Donald Trump said 5 words I said seconds before while reading D/C for an answer as to why! And I was just discussing with my husband about it, and all of a sudden the news flashes a story about a new church movement and I got so excited. It’s real. So that’s that. Good luck to you, I had no luck with people of LDS, but lots of things with GOD and JESUS themselves, and they were written to be used as tools, not to take litarally. God is there, the congregations are drunk on power and taking that freewill away, trust me on this, I left too, but not totally, I read D/C, and still have my visiting teacher come and eventually I will find a better ward of hippies and folks like me, and I won’t join the ward, just attend. I’m still with LDS. God be with you, give D/C another chance.
@Heath James, Sr. — You are almost there; that is: to being completely free! Realizing that the Mormon and Joseph Smith experience has shown you it is all a bunch of bologna…well, the jump to realizing that ALL religion is manmade mumbo-jumbo for the purposes of: control, manipulation and making money (or profiteering at the expense of poor and unfortunate souls that can’t think there way out of a box)— well, then you can take it to the next level and be free of all religions. Break away of all your burdens and, once you realize the truth, then you can finally be free! Enjoy your life without that bogus thing that others “think” is god (because there is none). All the best in your journey of true discovery!
@William BUT keep Doctrines & Covenants Pearl of Great Price, because that is what helped me realize it’s not God or Jesus, it’s the Mormon congregations that are not real, and are fake. Not God. You need, as I did, to get away from the Church but Keep D/C for usage as a tool. There is a God, there is Jesus Christ, but LDS is a joke and I did notice that a lot of the little kids seemed to have ADHD, Bipolar, and other childhood mental disorders and I think it has something to do with the bloodlines being too close together. So there is much wrong with LDS, but not D/C even though it was procured by Joseph Smith. Otherwise leave as I did, but don’t denounce God. Good luck Heath James, Sr. And William, you were right about the congregation, but not God and Jesus.
@globalgoldira — What, and Jesus loves us because the Bible (or in your case the D&C and the PofGP and the Book of the Dead) tells us so? Please, the god and Jesus stories are all based upon ancient mythology that the Judeo-Christian movement morphed into their own; however, it is all mysticism created by power hungry men that has been used for centuries to control mankind and used to justify horrific acts that makes anyone who claims that god exists just as despicable as those who started the whole rant of mythology. There is no god or gods, there is no Jesus, there is no Zeus or Horus or Isis or any other pantheon of mystical beings; any more than there is a Santa Claus or an Easter Bunny! Knowing that truth (that there are no deities) is what will set you free!
@William OH MY! No God, no Jesus? You need to go to Doctrines & Covenants POGP, and see for yourself that there is a picture of the great circle with all Egyptian writing and figures on it, but it you look closer you see the whole story of Jesus Christ and I believe there IS A GOD and A JESUS. Sorry we can’t come to terms with it. I may have messed up with the Mormons, but I know God and Jesus are there for me, because I pray hard and get results. I may not be a Molly Mormon, and folks may not take to me because of my offbeat ways, then I turn to God and Jesus and they comfort me FAKE or NOT, I feel something. I know they are not sitting up there as men, but as energy and spiritual essences, because mankind does not know how to totally control mankind. That’s why D/C is VEILED, so people like you won’t dampen the message. I say LDS may not be right for me, and I am no Molly Mormon, but that D/C book has saved my frickin’ life and has brought me so much closer to what God and Jesus are and represent. So your rants of no God or Jesus shows you are a sad person and can’t be part of the social religion. ME???? I am an oddball person and that is why I didn’t fit in and they shunned me. I had to get away from them, and I did. But I am lft with a more belief in God and Jesus, and pray and ask them to help me all the time, and I don’t need to be bound in the temple, that’s the fake stuff, all that temple crap and baptizing the dead and the Mormon ways are fake, but not Jesus and God and what was in that D/C book and what I read to myself. I’m not trying to be mean, I just have my way sand due to God and Jesus I’ve been able to live t his long. I don’t intend to live too old, I want to basically leave the earth in the next few years. Remember William, people ruin it for people!
William
November 4, 2015 at 11:09 pm
@globalgoldira — Whatever floats your boat and brings you happiness, then I guess that is all that is important in this short existence we call life.
For me, my happiness began once I freed myself from all religion and was able to realize that there is NO god in heaven or devils below us…and, as intelligent as you appear, I am shocked that you can’t see through the scam and realize that ALL religion (not just Mormonism) is MAN-MADE!!!
I also find it amazing that you think anything that Joseph Smith created was legitimate, especially since it has all been proven to be a fraud…boggles the mind you seem to think otherwise.
Anyway, have a nice life and enjoy your bliss!
Jae
November 22, 2015 at 10:35 am
I know the church is true
I’m a convert half my body covered in tattoos. Every week I cop it from members it’s a sin etc. Also I get bullied and gossiped about and all members but two have really stopped talking to me.
This is tough. I’m going to go to a different ward next week just so I don’t have to deal.
@Jae, don’t bother, they will shun you any ward you go to. I have been through two of them and just gave up. One girl said, “The congregation doesn’t get you!” I was so sad and down, but since converting to LDS (Mormon) I’ve had a very good relationship with God and Jesus, no joke! My life is changed, but I don’t go to any ward, but am still a member. You can do to any ward you want, so eventually I’m going to go to one across town. Good luck, and don’t be ashamed. I’ve been in your shoes.
@Jae — If the church were true (big IF there) and if there were a true church on the earth and IF there were a god in heaven…and IF the Bible was really the word of a god or gods; then when you read the following, it would answer your question:
“A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another” (John 13:34-35). [Hint: by the fact that so much of the Mormon stakes, wards and branches are so clickish and will only accept “Molly Mormons & Holy Joe” types of members, that should show you that they are at odds with their own scriptures.]
On this point the MORMON’s fail nearly every time. So let that be a sign to you, if you believe in those sorts of things. Just be aware that all the other churches, with the exception of those that pay a lot of lip-service in attempts to “make” people think they love everyone; well, they fail at it too.
However, if you still think the MORMON’s have the truth and IF you think the Bible has any truth in it, then when you read this, it should remove any doubt about any modern religion (including the LDS church):
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” (Matthew 7:15-20).
Every church on this planet, including the LDS church is about these three (3) things:
1- Power
2- Control
3- Money
Anyone that tries to tell you otherwise is a liar. So take off the blinders, discover the real truth and then you can truly be free.
@William I know what you want!!!! You don’t want there to be a God or Jesus Christ, you want to run your own religious science church. I can take all your posts and turn it into its own Book of Mormon, the way you preach “NON GOD” jargon! You tell me always to find my bliss. William, I like that! I’ve learned so much about God and Jesus just by reading your rant posts on the fact that there is no God or Heaven and that religion is man made. YOU ARE RIGHT in one thing, Religion was created by man, but God and Jesus are real, and Man has such small brains that they can only treat God like a little kid reading a comic book as the Jehovah Witnesses doctrines look like (they resemble a comic book on God). Mankind cannot conceive God and Christ like God and Christ are. Mankind would become retarded and repressed, because of all the light, energy and basic radiation God and Jesus put out. That’s why we never see them in form. So my advice to you is to start your own thing, and then get your converts and why would you be disputing something you don’t believe exists anyways???? Just a friendly Mormon girl wanting to know. Hope you find your bliss.
@globalgoldira— Not quite sure how you are able to derive what I do or don’t want. But I do think it would be a major leap forward once all of humankind is able to come out of the dark-ages and stop thinking that mystical beings exist — YES! Also, I do not preach anything; that is, unless you are of the mindset that hoping everyone would be of sound reason instead of mysticism is a form of preaching.
I find it odd that you “think” or believe that you have learned about mystical beings (you call god or jesus) from books that have been definitively proven as written and created by men for the purposes of control, manipulation and profiteering — all done / created for the self-serving greed at the expense of less educated peoples. And that your stated reasons of why mystical beings are not seen is quite laughable — they are mystical, therefore NO ONE will ever see them!
My points of view have been formed over many years of study and yes, I was even raised in a Mormon household and many of my family still associate with this church, but thankfully I was able to discover the truth and finally able to set myself free. I progressed from being an agnostic, to an atheist and eventually arrived at being an anti-theist…all of which are not beliefs.
The truism that I have discovered, in the journey of setting myself free is: “We were all humans until, race disconnected us, religion separated us, politics divided us and wealth classified us.” And as long as this is the way of the world, then the human race will not ever be able to live as one (which means that religions have won by keeping people dumb and suspicious).
@William ARE you Homesexual, William? It’s not a bad thing, just that you sound like a ranting gay guy who can’t go back to the security of being ignorant.
William
November 24, 2015 at 1:12 pm
@globalgoldira — Not sure why you feel a need to ask about my sexual orientation or how that has ANYTHING to do with this comment-blog; that is, unless you are attempting to ignorantly shift the argument to another topic. But to answer your question, no I am not gay — nor do I appreciate your attempt to try to make an implied ad hominem attack.
Sometimes, due to the willful ignorance of those that tenaciously cling to a need to believe in something, I may sound as if I am ranting — but that is only due to the fact that wanton obliviousness is a plague among so many Religulous types that genuinely don’t / won’t / can’t see the truth.
Rea
December 10, 2015 at 2:10 am
William! I very much appreciate your comments. My first time on this blog. I am well aquainted with your thoughts as went through similar situatioon and found the falsehood of LDS using their own documents. Here is mmy post earlier this a.m. Hope you are comforted knowing your not alone.
I was a convert at age 14 until 45 yrs. of age and very active as well holding many callings. I never could force myself to testify the robotic like statements most everyone gave at Fast Sunday. I guess the double standards many LDS members portrayed is what started me studying the church history in depth. What I learned through church history completely supported my deep feelings of deception, reversal of doctrines, adoption of conflicting doctrines etc. After several years of being told have faith, regard the church as a club if you really don’t believe all the doctrines. What finally infuriated me was the statements by officials was: Leave The Thinking To The Apostles and follow their counsel. I wrote a letter requesting my name be removed from the records of the church. It took many meetings and months before the church finally accepted my request. I received a letter that was very condescending in nature filled with brotherly love casting me into hell basically. The day I received the letter of confirmation I felt as though a thousand tons of evil was removed from my presence. I COULD SMILE AND LAUGH AGAIN.. I am grateful for the purity of life, honesty, integrity words of wisdom as my health an work career has greatly benefited. My own LDS relatives shunned me for about five years then started trying to convert me again. Since leaving the church I miss mainly the wonderful music. I have found much more supporting evidence of deception, lies, since removing my name from the church records. At that time Ex Mormon’s for Jesus was a tremendous help to me. If you are staying in the church because you like the lifestyle then continue on and don’t lose any sleep over it anymore. Just simply don’t let them make you a liar and speak your mind. I have not found anything better other than the Urantia Book and Foundation. The Urantia Book explains and answers all the questions I had prior to accidently learning of it. I know now that it was not an accident though now I read the Urantia several times.
@Rea — Thanks for sharing your story and I am sure that our stories are very relatable. It is amazing how liberating it becomes when you are able to free yourself from anything oppressive.
For me, once the realization that it (the LDS church and all religion) was all a lie had finally sank in (for me) it became a much easier path of discovery that all churches are nothing more than manmade structures (for profit and control) and that there is no god or gods above us, no heaven or hell and that we are not part of some convoluted great plan of happiness — instead, we are here to discover our own happiness and in that journey is where we eventually find our bliss.
Happy travels my friend!
My problem, all my life, to make me even be here at this site, is that I was always “in the right place” “the right timing” “the right intentions” “the right moment” “the right reasons” “the right place at the right time” BUT it was ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS “being around THE WRONG PEOPLE that made the temple walls fall down (literally).
I was a convert at age 14 until 45 yrs. of age and very active as well holding many callings. I never could force myself to testify the robotic like statements most everyone gave at Fast Sunday. I guess the double standards many LDS members portrayed is what started me studying the church history in depth. What I learned through church history completely supported my deep feelings of deception, reversal of doctrines, adoption of conflicting doctrines etc. After several years of being told have faith, regard the church as a club if you really don’t believe all the doctrines. What finally infuriated me was the statements by officials was: Leave The Thinking To The Apostles and follow their counsel. I wrote a letter requesting my name be removed from the records of the church. It took many meetings and months before the church finally accepted my request. I received a letter that was very condescending in nature filled with brotherly love casting me into hell basically. The day I received the letter of confirmation I felt as though a thousand tons of evil was removed from my presence. I COULD SMILE AND LAUGH AGAIN.. I am grateful for the purity of life, honesty, integrity words of wisdom as my health an work career has greatly benefited. My own LDS relatives shunned me for about five years then started trying to convert me again. Since leaving the church I miss mainly the wonderful music. I have found much more supporting evidence of deception, lies, since removing my name from the church records. At that time Ex Mormon’s for Jesus was a tremendous help to me. If you are staying in the church because you like the lifestyle then continue on and don’t lose any sleep over it anymore. Just simply don’t let them make you a liar and speak your mind. I have not found anything better other than the Urantia Book and Foundation. The Urantia Book explains and answers all the questions I had prior to accidently learning of it. I know now that it was not an accident though now I read the Urantia several times.
In all fairness, had an angry mob not murdered an imprisoned Joseph Smith, we might have the answers that allude us. Joseph was grossly imperfect, similar to Paul, Moses, King David, Peter, you or I. His imperfections and lack of clarity exactly mirrors what we see in all of religion. Does this make it less true?
The Urantia book and it’s claim of divine inspiration is no exception to the rule. It takes a large dose of faith to believe a comatose-like state produced eternal truths dictated by aliens through a man who has never been identified.
@Dwayne — None of it is true and all religions are false (at least in the sense that they claim they have been created for) since there is no deity, other than what man has created for the purposes of control and profiting from mankind’s willful ignorance.
If you study the history of any religious leader, Joseph Smith included, they did it for power and control and to create a feeling of a “safety in numbers” that is used to justify their self-serving purposes. If Joseph Smith had not been killed, he probably would have created a Mormon army to attempt to seize control of the USA (based upon the direction he was heading during his last years in Nauvoo).
So with Joseph’s death the Mormon church became more of Brigham Young’s church and he modified it for his own purposes. That is evident from his writings, recorded speeches and how he handled dissenters during the long journey to the West.
I understand where you’re coming from but I have two views that run contrary to yours. First, I believe Jesus actually lived and did not profit in any worldly manner. Secondly, I believe in Deity. Like dark energy, spiritual mass has not been observed but I believe it exists. I also believe love and hate exists, although we can not prove or disprove them.
@Dwayne you are right about what you say. Jesus did actually live, and he did not profit from his wanderings, only hundred of years later when the CHURCH BECAME CORRUPT! And that’s what happens in some congregations, they become closed and jealous of newbies and sometimes corrupt. I believe that God himself is ALL GOOD and ALL EVIL, but Michael is right about one thing, there is no DEVIL. The evil in the world is generated by Free Agency and by humans. God is so vast that people had to split him up into so many things when it’s only GOD/JESUS, look at the photo in D/C Book of Abraham the big circle, look at the first drawing in the middle, that represent One God/One Son!
William
December 10, 2015 at 10:36 pm
@Dwayne — True, one cannot argue with a feeling…but, as you pointed out, a feeling proves nothing. I find that so many people, due to their weak natures and inability to stand firmly on their own capacities, desperately feel that there must be something out there. Yet, when it comes to people’s attempts to justify any form of deity, I have found that when trying to rationally show forth a lack of solid evidence or lack of justification for their feelings…it is much as Carl Sagan stated: “You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe.” Therefore, most weak minded people won’t allow themselves to see beyond the mysticism — because they “think” they HAVE TO believe in something.
To me, those that think there are any god or gods is just another example of how willful ignorance is a total disconnect from reality [ lawfully defined mental break known as: Impositional Religiosity or IR]. It is this unfortunate disconnect with reality and delusional condition (IR) that enables people to suffer from an aberration that they “think” is faith; thus, keeping some people in a dark ages type of superstitional mind-set.
Yes, it is truly sad that people, in this day in age, still believe in this mystical bologna.
William
December 10, 2015 at 10:48 pm
@Dwayne & globalgoldira — There is ZERO proof that Christ existed and, to say that the Bible is the proof is the same as saying Greek Mythological documentation is proof of Zeus…or that the Quran is proof of Allah…or that the Book of the Dead is proof of Horus…or that the “Night before Christmas” is proof of Santa Claus…until there is solid evidence, it is all a myth.
It is amazing that you can make the jump to the fact that Joseph Smith was a fraud, who used the identical mechanisms crafted by the early Catholic Bishops to create the mystical Jesus — yet, you just can’t be honest enough and truthful enough with your own selves to come to the full realization that it was all a scam. Yes, ALL RELIGION is a scam and is based on similar fraudulant type mechanisms that play upon the minds of the willfully ignorant to be used to control you and, even more sadly, to prevent you from becoming truly free!
Rea
December 10, 2015 at 2:38 am
Globalgolira, Good morniing. I read a couple of comments you made. I am brand new to this site although I did write a comment to William whom you also interfaced with.
I am very interested in your being always at the right place at the right time, and how it backfired on you. It seems you need support from someone that has always given up opportunities in order to be with the right people; Maybe I was with the wrong folks after all. Enlighten me please! I am nearing 70 and still love learning and helping others. If you choose not to reply remember none of your good intensions will ever be against you rather setting you apart from those that choose to follow a dishonorable path. I salute you. I am very familiar with disparity and wonder why answers are not often not recognizable to me.
@Rea OMG, Rea, Good day to you! For some reason I’ve always wanted to be closer to god than most of the peers I was born with. I was born into a very wealthy Jewish family and lived in an elegant building on the 23rd floor of a big apartment building in NYC with celebrity types and famous UN delegates and more!!! I saw more in my lifetime than most in my wards that I tried to be part of. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and they just could not relate to me. So what I mean is I’ve always been in the right place at the right time, and moment, but always with the wrong people. When I first felt God, my mother tried to cut me down about it and even showed up to my school to yell at me in front of the whole class, and I was stigmatized greatly all my life. Because of first my strange Grandmother who was so religious and insane, I became anxiety ridden and other kids my age couldn’t get me like the congregation couldn’t get me. But I loved school and the teachers and the whole concept, and always did extra credit. Once in 7th grade my parents sent us to an all black school on the other side of town and we were ridiculed by everyone there and it gave me a complex, that only added to my anxiety. I could not sleep because my dad was manic depressive at the time and kept his tv very loud and I could not sleep. Then as we grew, I realized that my parents didn’t want us for having kids the real way, but we were (the 4 of us kids) ARM CANDY FOR DAD to dump money in these tax shelters with our names on them, and when he lost all his money, he cashed in those tax shelters meant for the kids (us), then he sat us all down and said he was gong to kill himself and to stick together. He tried 4 times and succeeded,and I think my mom helped him do it. She got a million and we got a million but mom started fooling around with the family trustee and together they invaded our monies with tax loopholes and stole it from us and now this all came to me when I started reading DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS PEARL OF GREAT PRICE, by looking to the sections of family births last two digest: 27, 29, 57, 59, 61, 64 all sections told me what was what and how it all happened. If you read thos same sections, you may not see what I saw, but pray God, go to the section that pertains to what you are praying to him about and read it. I start with the page number first. Like today if I prayed for answers on a problem or issue, Ria, I would turn to Section 10 or page 10 first, then go from there. But because I didn’t have the opportunity to be Mormon as a kid and throughout my life, I ended up around all the wrong people, due to my parents mostly. Now I am Mormon and although I do not go, due to my mental state, I still am Mormon.
I’ve been reading so much about how folks who left the church said it was fake, Joseph Smith was a sex maniac, yada yada! REMEMBER this, I feel that the religion end of Mormon is the key to understanding God and Jesus. As for the folks in the church, SUCKVILLE! I saw them for what they really were, and the missionaries and Elders. When I first started, I thought they were so holy and good, but I was wrong, and I found out that a lot of Mormon kids are mentally sick with Bipolar, Austism and a host of other mental disorders. I’d see the couples and kids and folks only in the church and wondered why none of them ever called and invited me over to eat or get a lift to church. Little by little I started to realize it;s not about them, it’s about GOD AND JESUS. Those two are NOT fake, NOT SEX manics etc. And Joseph Smith was just a vehicle to get the message to folks like normal us, who thought being Mormon and hanging with Mormons was something else, but it’s all veiled by God so we can learn slowly about people, scriptures and faith. I tried two wards and both said, “Oh, the congregation doesn’t get you!” They shunned me, etc. I stopped going to church after I did 3 events and saw the truth in the PEOPLE, not the religion. I have gotten so much closer to god and Jesus, but the congregations, NO WAY, no one ever calls, inquires or asks what’s up. I told my visiting teacher we were going to cool it, and he has not called to see about me one time since. So I know what’s up. I love DOCTRINE & COVENANTS PEARL OF GREAT PRICE because it has helped me understand why the congregations shunned me, murmured against me and other such crapola. I use the doctrine, not the congregation. I never go to church anymore, who wants to pray and take sacrament with folks that are not real, it’s them, not the religion, I didn’t TECHNICALLY leave the church, just the congregation, I JUST DON’T GET THEM!
The church is true. The members aren’t. The members especially the born and Breds are horribly judgemental.
But I don’t go to church for them I go for God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.
You need faith first before you really will know that this is true. Every day my testimony strengthens and my faith strengthens and the blessings that have been bestowed upon me are beyond what I ever thought would be possible.
The church is true there is nothing truer in the world.
All you need is a little bit of faith. That’s all it takes and you will see the truth.
We are taught to try out best to be like Kesus Christ. But we are also told that every single one of us sin. Even our prophet sins. Why? Because none of us are perfect. All of us are equal.
Think about the prophet Paul. He was a convert he hated the church before he realised the truth. Joseph Smith was also a convert as the church wasn’t on the earth until God utilised Joseph as an instrument in his hands.
The hate that people feel for this gospel I used to think this before I became a member I used to think.
They’re sexist
They make woman share their husbands
They don’t let you live how you want
But it’s far from the truth
Men can hold the priesthood, women can’t but women can hold authority in other ways. one reason that has been explained to me is that men need more guidance in keeping with the gospel. I’m not trying to cause offence but generally speaking women in the gospel can be better behaved than men. We all have different roles and we are all equal! It doesn’t matter what sex you are what religion, race, sexual orientation whatever we are all equal!
Multiple marriages used to be a part of this church. It stopped sometime in the 1800s and is not supported by the LDS church any longer. The women weren’t forced to share their husbands! It was more about populating the earth rather than treating women badly.
The second coming of Jesus Christ when there will be 1000 years of peace on the earth, no murder no hate just love. Than the earth will become like the garden of Eden it will be made perfect again. Those that are in the Celestial Kingdom will come down to earth and inherit the earth and live for eternity Down here. Now it is said that there are a lot more women in the celestial kingdom than men so it is said that when they inherit the earth there will be a few women to every man. It’s not about treating women grossly. It’s just about men and women both need each other. And one women shouldn’t have to miss out on having a husband etc.
As long as you try your best to live the gospel to standards that’s all Heavenly Father asks of you. As long as you try.
This church is real. Heavenly Father is real. Jesus Christ is real. The Holy Ghost is real. All my prayers are answered.
If you seek Ye shall find.
If Ye knock it shall be opened unto you.
If Ye ask Ye shall recieve.
Just try it guys have a little bit of faith. Prey to Heavenly Father ask if the Book of Mormon is true ask the questions that you want to ask. They will be answered unto you via the Holy Ghost.
I agree with every thing you say @Jae! Except that whole thing about the 1000 years of peace and more women in the high heaven than men. When we pass away, we are not men and women, we are energy and soul only, we don’t even realize we are passed away it is so peaceful. Yes, there are levels of heaven, but we do not come back here to Earth again. Our souls are dispersed into pure energy and we are with God and Jesus Christ in a spirit sense, not human, only energy, in different levels. We won’t be sharing our Godly energy with Charles Manson or Jack the Ripper! But you are right that we will be with our loved ones, or those in the higher heaven. We are not even aware of our past life on earth, just a peaceful breathing, floaty feeling, not even speaking. YES, the church and doctrines of Mormon are true, but yes, the congregation and peoples in there are mostly MESSED UP, and I ain’t no MOLLY MORMON, the women were very jealous of me because of my joy over being in the church (LDS) and that I could totally translate the doctrines and versus and story, and I even was where Joseph Smith saw his vision, and walked the earth and I saw where he found the golden plates left by a lost tribe of Vikings and a very old Indian tribe called the Anastazi. Joseph found those plates buried in these big hills, I SAW THOSE HILLS and I asked our counselor at the time what they were and she said they were a very old Indian tribe’s storage hills and there was gold in there, and we all started to try and dig up treasure but she said it had all been found. It was right where Joseph Smith lived in Upstate NY! So I am a changed lady since embracing Mormon LDS values. I am not perfect, but I am repenting and I notice that the more I translate the LDS doctrines, the less friends I have, the more alone I have become and my family has abandoned me, my husband is very distant. But I take comfort it’s because once I said to God I wanted him to be my father, husband, family, etc., everything else dropped off, including the LDS congregations I tried to fit into. They are so fake and not following things except on Sundays. And they are all dressed up and nice, but when I met with some of them last year for a few event meetings I was astonished. The couples were slovenly and unshaven and wearing sweat pants and there was a young Mormon kid banging his head against the floor screaming for his pennies. I tried to help him, but was shooed away by everyone. Many ignored me, and were jealous when I knew what was what in the doctrines and Book of Mormon and told them I was there where it all began. They were jealous and mean and horrid people, but LDS is my saving grace. I read my doctrines, listen to God and Jesus, and pray. I try and live right, it’s not easy to rid myself of evil thoughts, but I am a good person in my heart. I wish it had worked out for me with the two congregations I tried to be part of, it didn’t. Life goes on! Peace.
oh you are so right,,and the Mormon money machine takeing your money
Jae
December 28, 2015 at 5:09 pm
Tithing is between you and God no one else.
No one comes up to you with a gun at your head to make you pay tithing.
Half the members I know don’t pay tithing that doesn’t mean they’re damned!
No one threatens us no one can make us pay tithing.
Why are so many people so ignorant.
Find out facts first.
William
December 29, 2015 at 7:34 am
@ Rae on Rose’s Tithing Comment — According to Malachi 3:8-12; 3 Nephi 24:8-12 and a number of other scriptures you profess belief in; this is a commandment to pay a tithe and, many an old LDS patriarch would call it fire insurance. Additionally, any member of the church who wishes to enter the temple must be a 100% full tithe payer; otherwise, their temple recommend cannot be issued or is void. Every member of the LDS church, in order to be in good standing with the leadership, knows that they must be full tithe payers; as well as, participate in the Missionary Fund, Building Fund, Fast Offerings, etc…so, do not for a moment kid yourself into thinking that you know all the facts. Because if you are not full tithe payers, in accordance with LDS church doctrine, you will NOT be saved on the last day (hence the erroneous term of calling it “fire insurance”) and, according to scripture, one that does not pay will NOT gain the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom — in other words: They will be damned.
Jae
December 29, 2015 at 7:40 am
Celestial kingdom is the highest where God and Jesus are right.
Than there are the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms.
If someone is a member and doesn’t pay tithing does not mean they’re damned what is wrong with you!!! You can still go to one of the kingdoms where you are worthy to go and Jesus and God will choose that not man!!!
You don’t automatically go to hell for committing sin or not follow the commandments completely you just may miss out on going into a higher kingdom.
Hell is separate. People will only go to hell when God does not dwell within them because they are so evil so Satan takes them away and God will not dwell in those people. Now these people that go to hell are truely evil!!!!
Get your facts right just because you do one thing wrong doesn’t mean you go to hell. Hello this church is reasonable!! God knows that we will make mistakes. he is forgiving and merciful to those who are truely repentant.
William
December 29, 2015 at 9:13 am
@Jae on Tithing Comments — From your comments I can tell that you are neither well versed on Mormon Doctrines nor knowledgeable in much of the foundational beliefs for many of those in the LDS church. You really should study more of what you profess to believe in — if you do (study more) you might be surprised at what you will find; that is, if you can keep an open mind about it.
First, according to LDS belief, there are Three Kingdoms in heaven, with each having specific levels of glory within each degree of Mormon Heaven (we are not referring yet to Outer Darkness — that is another conversation). The highest heaven, the one that every Mormon is supposed to be striving for, is the first degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom. In LDS circles, to achieve any other level, based on Mormon theology, is the same as being damned (since to be damned is to be “thwarted” from achieving the place where God & Jesus reside; that being, the first degree of glory).
Second, many Mormon theologians confess that (in their humble opinions) the vast majority of LDS peoples will end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom (middle glory) because each Mormon “knows” what they should be doing and don’t (for all those sins of omission…not just the ones of commission).
Third, even men and women (unless they die prior to a reasonable age) that might have lived an otherwise perfect life and kept every single commandment; yet, they are not sealed in the Temple to a worthy spouse for all time and eternity…well, they would only make it to the second degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom — Wow, doesn’t that sound like a fair, just, loving and compassionate Father in Heaven that would “damn” someone just for not being married in his holy temple?
Fourth, in the doctrines of the Mormon Church, the Telestial Kingdom is considered “hell” and is not the same place in which the Sons of Perdition will end up; that place being Outer Darkness (the lowest form of Hell).
In conclusion, based upon Mormon scripture and teachings, someone that is of the acceptable age and is NOT temple worthy, does not pay their tithes & offerings faithfully, has not been married in the temple and does not keep all commandments, avoiding sins of omission and has NOT had their “calling and election made sure”…those people will NOT be found worthy, when brought before the bar of Christ on their Judgement Day and will NOT be allowed to enter into the first degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom (which by definition is a form of being damned).
Sure, you can go to church and partake of the sacrament in their Sacrament Meetings, praying & hoping that the gods in heaven will forgive you…something that many people of many Christian religions hope for (that being to be forgiven). And perhaps, over several thousands of millennia and working on becoming perfect (provided all your temple work has been done), you might be able to move up a degree; however, in the doctrines and policies of the Mormon Religion, NO-ONE can move between kingdoms and reservations to be in the first degree of glory with god is ONLY reserved for those that kept HIS commandments in their mortal existence!
Have a wonderful life in your pursuit of the truth Jae!
that’s what the lds church is all about..geting your money.its the biggest fraud ever pulled and you dam fools fall for it
Jae
December 29, 2015 at 4:52 pm
I’m only a convert of 7 months. I was not bred into the church. But I can tell you I’m a full tithe payer and I can see the blessings and I’m not even going to go into what blessings I recieve because there are too many and by now I know the type of ignorant people that I’m commenting to.
No one makes you pay it!!!!!! Half the members don’t pay it. I choose to pay it, it helps the humanitarian fund, the needy, it pays for church gatherings where we have food and DJs, it helps build the church up, it helps maintenance with having the churches, it helps the missionaries get around (flights, car maintenance, fuel etc). It helps the needy. If someone is in need of financial support the church will give them money. So that’s just a little insight into what tithing pays for.
William
December 29, 2015 at 9:47 pm
@ Jae – on Tithing — How do you think that the LDS Church has become the wealthiest church in the world, second only to the Catholic Church…and in less than 200 years? Because the people are told they will not be saved on the last day (read Malachi) nor will they gain entrance into the temple and, most importantly, it will impact their eternal salvation — so they are told to pay unless they want to burn! That sound like a strong motivator; that is, if you believe in that mythological mumbo jumbo?
Don’t you find it just a little bit odd that for a god or gods that are supposedly ALL powerful, ALL knowing, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and have created worlds without end — don’t you find that it is odd that HE NEEDS OUR MONEY? Have you ever for a just a second stopped to question that motive that, from all outward appearances, that it only benefits certain people; however, it does NOT benefit god — unless you are going to tell me that the all-powerful god can’t survive without filthy lucre too!
Jae
December 29, 2015 at 10:05 pm
I don’t want to waste my time on anymore of this back and fourth. I’m not a missionary and my knowledge of the gospel isn’t perfect. Again Malachi is in the Old Testament. I just keep repeating myself. The Book of Mormon is for the latter days as in now. Things have changed since the Old Testament. I’m tired of explaining myself to you people.
You have all tried all you could to change my faith in this gospel. Your attempts have been useless I have simply increased my faith stronger.
I really have sorrow for the amount of souls that Satan has a hold onto.
May our Heavenly Father have mercy on all your souls.
Jae
December 29, 2015 at 4:44 pm
You just don’t even read what I wrote before.
Spirit prison and hell are not a part of the kingdoms.
The three levels of kingdoms are for GOOD people.
Just because you don’t make it to the highest kingdom does not mean your damned.
All the kingdoms are still run by GOD. The most blessing are in the celestial kingdom but just because you don’t make it there and you enter into one of the other two does not mean your damned.
Damned is being in hell. I’m pretty sure I already explained that in my last comment but you don’t seem to have the capacity to read and comprehend what I’m saying.
I look forward to when Jesus Christ comes back down to the earth again and people like you with hard hearts Judging his gospel ignorantly without knowing what’s true and what’s not. I look forward to most people finally believing and Satan won’t have a hold on any man.
William
December 29, 2015 at 9:35 pm
@ Jae — Oh I did read what you wrote; however, it is quite obvious that several things are at play with you: 1) You did NOT read thoroughly what I wrote; 2) You really have not studied the doctrines, teachings and scriptures of the Mormon Church very well, and; 3) Only an ignoramus would claim, as you have, that I was “ignorantly” judging the gospel — all of which shows that you have not learned much at all (in your short journey) since, in my commentary, I was not passing judgement; instead, I was succinctly pointing out the false-truths that you claim to believe in. Yet, as I read what you have stated in this blog, I can tell that your soul is screaming out at you to be freed from this lie that you think is the truth; the lie that you call the LDS Church. Otherwise, why would you be browsing a sight such as this one; that is, if you were not searching for ways out and striving to become free of this Mormon cancer.
But, back to your response…
I did not say anything about Spirit Prison, I mentioned Outer Darkness which is where all of the Sons of Perdition and the followers of Satan (according to Mormon Scripture) will be cast out to AFTER THE FINAL JUDGEMENT! That is not the same thing as Spirit Prison or Paradise. Also, if you have ever had occasion to read a dictionary or Mormon Doctrine or even the Scriptural Concordance for the definition of “DAMNED” it means to be denied being in the presence of god, thwarted from progression or to suffer condemnation and suffer (due to not being in god’s presence). Sure, the Mormon leaders and teachers of the faith try to make everyone think that we will all be saved and that, other than the Sons of Perdition, everyone goes to heaven. Unfortunately, if you actually take the time to read through all Mormon scripture and study their doctrines as stated by their prophets and apostles, you will discover that in all reality, only those in the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom are the ones that will be in gods presence (all other degrees might be able to see god from a distance but will not be in gods’ presence).
What blows my mind is that you obviously appear to think god and Jesus are loving, caring, benevolent, fair, forgiving, merciful and just beings — again, you have NOT read the entire canon of scripture have you? The first mass genocide, according the religious record, was delivered by Jehovah (that is Jesus in the pre-New Testament records) killing all but Noah and his family and two-by-two of every creature — what kind of a loving being does that? How can a loving father think it is OK or that his children are better off by all being dead? That is just sick!!! Then, when the Jew’s returned to Israel, Jehovah justified their destroying (via genocide) entire races and cultures of people — and you are OK with that too?
And now, you appear to be looking forward to the mystical end times when Jesus will come back, burning up the planet and killing off all those that would be at the Telestial level (I guess god doesn’t have the power to deal with his children…it is just easier to kill them off). Then, after the massive destruction and reconstruction of the planet…peace will reign for 1000 years; after which time, because god doesn’t think he can trust his children anymore, he will re-release Satan for a season to see what will happen; which will result in the final battle of Gog & Magog and the final destruction of the earth — all of which is necessary in order for god to usher in the earths paradisiacal glory.
Perhaps when you read all of that you might think it is fantasy; but, that is the paraphrased version of what you say you believe in, right out the Mormon scriptures. Any if that is what you believe in, I have to wonder who the real idiot is (I will give you a hint: It’s not me).
Jae
December 29, 2015 at 9:59 pm
Again you are assuming you know me. I’m pretty sure we’ve established that you don’t know me. I have read the Book of Mormon twice and have read d&c once and POGP once New Testament once and the Old Testament I have read 1/3 of it.
The bible is needed and is the basis but a lot of the stuff in it is horrific. After Jesus died the law of Moses was fulfilled. That’s why Book of Mormon is more for Latter Days as in now because it applies to us more than the bible.
If Jesus didn’t die for us law of Moses wouldn’t be fulfilled.
Yes God had said that his people were not repenting of their sins. He sent them prophets and the people slaughtered them. He sent time and time again and the people were ignoring the warnings.
He didn’t warn them once but over and over again.
After he caused the great flood do you also know what God had said??!!! He basically admitted that it was harsh and he said that he would never do that exact same thing again.
God admits that he is a jealous God and basically that he has also learnt through the beginning of man lessons for himself. He sent Jesus Christ down here to understand more about us etc etc.
If you think that having faith in something is ignorant what is your valid proof that God and our church is not real. Targeting people of the church like prophets is not evidence.
I am a convert as I have previously mentioned. I am a 26 year old female and I have an arm and a leg sleeve of tattoos and have more on my body. I have been judged because of my appearance. I came to this site because I wanted to share my story about being misjudged and how hurtful it is and how maybe others can take comfort in my story. I didn’t come here because I was questioning the truth of the church. I came here questioning why some members can be so horrible when it’s against gospel to judge.
But hey don’t listen to me I’m just an ignoramous.
You know what’s great though that I love. You’ve been researching the gospel yourself that’s what I love. I feel like I have accomplished some of God’s work, the seed has been planted in you.
I don’t know if you have any faith in anything at all as apparently according to your knowledge faith is ignorant. So I don’t know how you think we got here but it’s pretty funny.
Next time when you are going through a trial in your life are you going to pray? Do sometimes things work out for you amazingly and you wonder why? If someone you love is in hospital or battling an illness, would you think to pray？
I leave you with that.
Ignoramous out.
William
December 29, 2015 at 10:46 pm
@Jae — I don’t know you and never implied that I did. All that I have of you is what you wrote, along with your opinions and personal commentary. So not sure why you thought I had assumed anything.
However, while we are going through intro’s and, from what you wrote here — do you feel that becoming part of the LDS Church has made you a better person? If that works for you, then knock yourself out! But you should note that this site is titled: “Why Mormons Leave” …I don’t think the intension was to be a commentary on why they stay or what they believe.
Regarding studies: I have studied the Mormon phenomenon for nearly half a century (I was even born one), I am degreed in history & philosophy and even graduated from seminary. I have read the bible so many times I lost count, the Book of Mormon over a dozen times, as well as the PofGP & D&C too. Oh, by the way, if you read towards the end of 3 Nephi (in the BofM) you will find that Joseph Smith wrote the words of Malachi in there…he didn’t want people to think that by Jesus fulfilling the Law of Moses that people wouldn’t still have to pay for the privilege of membership.
It still amazes me that you can admit that god is flawed; in spite of the fact that in several places in the scriptures god claims that he is the same “…yesterday, today and forever…” Yet, you have acknowledged that god said he was learning from his lessons and realized that things like the flood and other genocidal tendencies might have been wrong. Do you comprehend what is being implied there? God can’t be perfect on one hand and not on the other; hence, it is all a man-made creation.
Praying is nothing more than meditation and having conversations with ones owns self. There is no god to neither listen nor answer you. And to think that all good things that happen are from god and all bad things must be from the devil — that is infantile. However, if you want to hold to that mythological belief…then you must realize that if god created everything (since the scriptures say god created everything) then he created evil too.
Obviously you think you have found happiness so, enjoy it while it lasts…but do keep studying and hopefully you will find the truth someday.
Jae
December 29, 2015 at 11:20 pm
Well since you have implied I really shouldn’t be on this site now I feel unwelcome so thank you for that also. I came here to find out if other people had troubles with judgement as I have and I wanted to get strength from others stories.
I don’t believe that everything in the our scriptures are always to be taken literally. That’s how I see it. We are told that God is still learning sure but he was the same yesterday today and forever that’s fine. But can he not learn on the way. Can he not make mistakes on the way. Where he said he wouldn’t do it again maybe I’m reading into it wrong. I was brought up to hate religion and god I’m only 7 months in as I said I don’t have a perfect understanding but from what I’ve been taught and read yes God is always the same but things become new. If God always stayed the same than the law or Moses would be stayed we would still be burning lambs for sacrifice or using slain birds blood and dipping a live bird in the blood and splashing it on the house 7 times you know how crazy that is for our generation if people went around doing that.
They talk in parables. Not everything is to be taken literally. Like how God made Adam from the dust of the earth is that literal or does he mean he is that powerful he can create whatever he wants from nothing.
I don’t know I don’t over analyze things.
I read and I feel that it’s true. The Holy Ghost has given me promptings and dwells within me he is the revealer of truth and he reveals these things into which are true.
I don’t know what else to say you people I am going through another trial in my life and I just don’t have the capacity to keep up with these messaging. But I can’t honestly tell you my life in the last 7 months has improved drastically beyond I ever thought possible.
Also lucifer was one of gods spirit children who wanted to have Jesus role in the world and the creation of it. God chose Jesus so lucifer and half the Angels or 1/3 God kicked out of heaven so they can never have a body or walk the early except by possessing gods children.
If bad things don’t happen we can’t appreciate the good. Adam and Eve in the garden didn’t know good or bad or sorrow or hate or love or unhappy or joy. They just knew life as it was. If they didn’t do something bad like partake of the fruit and got kicked out of the garden of Eden we wouldn’t be here today.
Bad things happen so we can appreciate the good. Life is eternal.
I can tell you all day it is true. And you can tell me all day it isn’t true. I never used to believe it was true and now I know it’s true I will never go back. My life is blessed we obviously can’t convince each other of each others beliefs.
And again I’m so sorry I broke an unwritten law about coming to a website to get some strength from I wanted to know that others have had trouble in the church with members. I don’t have issues with the gospel it’s just the members that I struggle with.
And I thought considering it was called a comprehensive list I thought judgement would be considered one of those issues and hence why I went onto this site.
Take it away. Rule the Internet you keyboard warrior. You will not longer hear from the ignarmous imbasoul or whatever else it was you called me.
Enjoy your life.
“Eternal damnation is the opposite of eternal life, and all those who do not gain eternal life, or exaltation in the highest heaven within the celestial kingdom, are partakers of eternal damnation. Their eternal condemnation is to have limitations imposed upon them so that they cannot progress to the state of godhood and gain a fullness of all things.” Elder Bruce R. McConkie
the Mormon church has nothing to do with jesus Christ your god is Lucifer ,satan hes the one that joseph smith dealt with not jesus
Jae
December 29, 2015 at 7:43 am
Also many members aren’t worth to enter into the temples.
Church is separate from the temple.
Everyone and anyone can go to church to the sacrement meeting.
The temple is sacred therefor holds more commandments. No one can just walk in off the street who is not a worthy member.
In saying that members that do have temple recommends who aren’t living righteously shouldn’t enter into the temple but some still do.
William
December 27, 2015 at 9:43 pm
@”Just try it guys have a little bit of faith…” — The level of willful ignorance that you display is staggering! It is also amazing at what lengths some will go to justify their beliefs, no matter how un-sound and un-founded they might be. For all the reasons you claim you do not like the LDS church; these are things that “should” open your eyes to the fact that it and all other churches on this earth are man-made creations to fool gullible people (as you appear to be).
Jae
December 28, 2015 at 1:45 am
What you and others think of me is irrelevant. People have trials. We can’t be children about it and give up on everything and have a tantrum when something goes wrong. My faith is trialed constantly. I am continually faced with temptations. Doesn’t mean I give up or have a cry about it because I don’t get my own way.
I am somewhat certain you have no idea who I am or what country I come from, my upbringing, career or whatever. Yet somehow your only defense to my comment (which in no way is meant to be offensive it is just me sharing my beliefs), which I have rights to do yet somehow you have made an attack on me as a person. How big of you. Give yourself a pat on your back for effort I am giving you a very slow clap right now for you as it takes so much strength to be a keyboard warrior.
Thank you for your efforts on trying to hurt my “ignorant, gullible self”. Try harder next time though if your intentions are to ‘hurt’ my poor little feelings haha.
I love Jesus Christ, he suffered far worse than any of us ignorant people can even begin to imagine!!!!
William
December 28, 2015 at 5:41 am
@Jae — My previous response was not intended to hurt your feelings. (The fact that what I said did cause any discomfort does show that you already know that you believe in something that your soul is telling you is wrong and, more importantly, should tell you that your argument is weak; that is, if my comments offended you). Instead, my previous posting was a commentary on how, in spite of all the facts and discoveries from the past 100 years that people can still believe in a mystical being and what is blatantly obvious mythology — yet, regardless of the facts and proofs, can still claim belief in things that do not exist or have strong beliefs in the tenants of a religion that is false; hence, my presumption is that it must be willful ignorance or a complete mental decision to turn ones back on the myriad of facts that shows you are on the wrong path.
You are right though, I don’t know you or your past or where you come from…any more than you know my history; however, that is all irrelevant to the fact that ALL religions are nothing more than the creations of men for the purposes of control, mass manipulation of thought and for personal gain (or profiteering). One thing that I have learned is, as Friedrich Nietzsche once said: “Sometimes people don’t want to hear the truth because they don’t want their illusions destroyed.” So, I am sorry to have chipped away at your illusion; however, to believe in a mystical being is no different than believing in: Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, The Tooth Fairy, Jack Frost, Frosty the Snowman, Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, Leprechauns or Pixies & Fairy’s — Just because people might believe something is true DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE (or real)!
You might say that you think the scriptures are the word of god…again, that would be a false assumption on your part and there is countless volumes now of solid evidence that they are the creations of man. Here are a few examples for you to bounce around in your head:
* The Old Testament or Septuagint — that is nothing more than Jewish mythology to which they have said and proven it as such. Most of the tales found in that old book are the amalgamation of much more ancient stories of mysticism or a plagiarization of the Egyptian religion (all of this is part of the scientific record.).
* The New Testament is 100% a copy of over a dozen variants for near and far-Eastern versions of the same story that, according to early Catholic bishops, was a “made up” story in the first place. If you have ever heard of: Krishna, Odysseus, Dionysus, Heracles, Glycon, Attis of Phrygia, or Horus (story of Isis) — if you have not heard of these ancient mystical stories, then I would encourage you to read about them; because it was these stories that the early Catholic fathers created the Christian mythology from and the story of their Christ (an almost direct copy of the story of Horus).
* The Book of Mormon — a story that Joseph Smith took from someone else and made it his own. The peoples in this story and the line told by later church leaders has since been disproven via years of DNA research. In other words, the ancient inhabitants of the American continent could not have come from anywhere close to the middle-East as the BofM would have us to believe.
* The D&C is nothing more than a ramblings of a womanizing, philandering pedophile that utilized this medium as a way to control his wife and his followers.
* The PofGP has been proven to be complete fabrication and, with the discovery the scrolls that Joseph Smith “claims” to have translated from (once discovered in the Chicago Museum and thought to have once been lost in a fire) have now shown what he claimed was written in those scrolls to now be false.
Therefore, don’t fall into the trap and illusions of many devout believers who don’t base anything on logic, facts and tangible evidence; nor fit into the mold as described by Carl Sagan when writing about believers: “You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe.” Instead, study and discover the truth, then you will truly be free.
globalgoldira
December 28, 2015 at 7:50 am
@William OY VEY William, OY VEY! Geezus! I’m constantly blown away by your words. Some of it makes sense, yes the church is a man made thing. But God and Jesus Christ are real. I know it. I feel them. I don’t hate the LDS church, I just didn’t get along with the congregations, just like when I was in high school, junior high, summer camp, jobs I’ve held, etc. – they hated up and DIDN’T GET ME either, so again, it’s not God and Jesus, it’s the people. You have made valid points on things, but not all you say is totallllly correct. You make your points, but even if Joseph Smith was what you said, I still believe D/C POGP, because when I pray on a certain day or date, I ask God to give me an answer, and then turn to either the page number in POGP or the Section in it that coincides with the date I am praying on. So I read that particular page or section for my prayer questions on December 28, and somehow the answers I ask are contained in that POGP text, very interesting and new for me. I’ve straightened out more because of it. BUT, for folks like YOU William, the doctrines and church beliefs are VEILED because your posts are very inflamed and jagged. You must have been abused most of your life, you talk about God like my own dad who blamed God for everything bad, and tried to do to me what you are posting, but sitting me down and talking to me on it. I under stand what Jae is takling about: @Jae I GET IT, and I don’t condemn you for your beliefs, it bolstered my own, thanks Jae. @William Wow, you even made my faith stronger, you are like the evil that followed Jesus into the desert and tried to tempt him and say God was not true. GEEZUS, get a life William.
@globalgoldira — What equally blows me away is that, for all intents and purposes, you appear to be otherwise intelligent; yet, on the other hand you are sucked into an emotional feeling that you “want to” believe is real and “hope & think & pray” that it is real — yet it is not real and your brain should be able to tell you that you are being delusional to believe in something / someone that is no more real than Santa Claus (Note: WANTING something to be real, that does not make it real]. Love, hate, anger, etc.; these are all emotions / feelings that might “feel” real, but they are not something that is tangible.
I do find it interesting that you are able to acknowledge that all churches are man-made, as well as admit that Joseph Smith was a bad man — then, in the same breath (so to speak) you think that these man-made holy books are true or have helped you find god..? ANYTHING that came from the churches of old or the American churches of the new world, they are FRUIT of the SAME poisonous tree; meaning: They are all TAINTED! Can’t you see that or even understand that? If the Jewish scribes and Rabbi’s admit and even teach the Old Testament (Septuagint) admitting that it was strictly a mythological writing and that many of the books within it (e.g., Ruth, Job, the story of Jonah, the Songs of Solomon, the Adam & Eve story, etc.) are all plays; the New Testament has been admitted as a plagiarized fabrication by the Catholic Church, and: Joseph Smith has been discredited as a philandering, gold-digging treasure hunter, a pedophile and a fraud — can’t you see that ALL of this info that you claim as having led you to god is ALL TAINTED? If you cannot see that then you are blinder than a bat and dumber than a Dodo bird.
Also, the fact that you continuously throw ad hominem attacks at me or think that I was abused or by calling me “evil” truly does diminish your character and shows the flaw in your intellect. I would suggest a better approach if you decide to reply again.
It is interesting to read through all of this… “discussion” and realize that both of you (@Jae, @William) may very well be using an unwarranted emotional appeal as well as slanted language, and irrelevant rebuttals/premises. I feel as though both could have had good premises, but as a reader and critical thinker, the discussion seemed to be emotional and uninformative due to the jargon and witty banter. @William I’m calling you out because throughout your responses you were verbally abusive. I’m sure you know thats not a great way to reply and “I would suggest a better approach if you decide to reply again.” Here are a few of your inappropriate responses:
1) @Jae “gullible people (as you appear to be).”
2) @Jae “I have to wonder who the real idiot is (I will give you a hint: It’s not me).”
3)@Jae “Only an ignoramus would claim, as you have”
4) @Jae “If you cannot see that then you are blinder than a bat and dumber than a Dodo bird.”
Even after you said “My previous response was not intended to hurt your feelings.”
So was every other response similar and including the 4 stated meant to hurt her feelings?
Anyway, I have my own beliefs that I am in no way interested in sharing here, but what I am interested in is how @William after half a decade of studying the bible came to the conclusion “-its all a scam.” and that he defends it with what seems like a grudge. I am also wondering why @William studied it for so long and what finally pulled him away.
I will hand it to you @Jae I am surprised you continued to argue (certainly not debate due to the emotional ties on both ends).
@William you did make some great points that I have never thought about.
I would also like to pose a question and ask for a response from @William:
How do you respond to Pascal’s Wager:
(this is only part of the theory)
1God is, or God is not. Reason cannot decide between the two alternatives.
2A Game is being played… where heads or tails will turn up.
3 You must wager (it is not optional).
4Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
5 Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (…) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
6 But some cannot believe. They should then ‘at least learn your inability to believe…’ and ‘Endeavour then to convince’ themselves.
@connor — Yes, this is or has become an interesting blog / forum. Some that have shared a few items do appear to strive for some true thought and observation; while others, not as much. Granted, some of my responses have become a bit short and even harsh at times…but, as the title states: “Why Mormons Leave” and is not about why they stayed, in spite of it all.
I am sure there are other forums available with the intent to save the lost sheep and help return them to the fold — but, unless I misunderstood the suggestions from the site owner, I don’t think it was about all the wonderful things about the Mormons and why I want to stay. Or did I miss something along the way?
For me, I am usually happy to know that if someone has found what brings them true joy in life; well, then I would think they have found their bliss. Yet, when I run into a steady stream of willful ignorance, I might get a bit punchy in my writing. The fact that you noted that some of my responses were inappropriate is noted…and it is sincerely appreciated by me and will guide me to writing with a more steady hand in the future.
On the question of Pascal’s Wager..? I doubt that I could answer it more concisely or expound any further on it than Voltaire did — but will end this note with a final observation by Voltaire that sums it up for me: “…that no matter how far someone is tempted with rewards to believe in Christian salvation, the result will be at best a faint belief…”
We left because of not because of abuse, but because of the culture of enabling abuse that we found in the church.
When it became necessary to cut my wife’s sexually abusive sibling out of our lives, it was horrible, but not all that unexpected, to find that her parents and siblings in unison turned their backs on us. This is pretty much textbook behavior from a serially abusive family structure.
What was unexpected was that we received the same treatment from so many church members that knew us both… even members of my family, and the local stake president.
The human instinct to ignore abuse and not get involved seems to have found a comfortable disguise in the church. We found the church, as a unit, to function very much on the same model as an abusive family. Hide it, pretend it never happened, ‘forgive’, blame the victim, and put on a smiling mask.
I had been able to take all the obvious historical, doctrinal and scientific problems of Mormonism on ‘faith’ for most of my life, but when I came face to face with the culture of enabling, it was the jarring jolt I needed to break out of the memeplex. It was like waking up.
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I’m starting to lose interest. I’ve been a member for 28 years and have been in our ward for 21. I’ve only given a talk once-when we first moved in. Never have had presidency positions or taught lessons. It’s bureaucratic. They size you up and judge. I’m a music educator. Never conducted choirs. Always these positions are given to those with money and position. I live in an affluent area. All those in presidency positions are rich. I’m fed up. All I do is play the piano on call. I’m sick of sitting on the bench. And, the bishop silenced me twice. He slipped a note to me twice while giving my testimony! -saying, “keep it Christ centered” or “short”. The nerve! I’ve never seen anyone else get a note. I want him out. The problem is, you can’t leave and join another ward. Only by moving and that’s what I want to do, just because of that.
I had to question the Church when I would be refused a temple recommend if I failed to pay tithing or was not current on child support. However it was okay to allow someone who illegally entered into the United States and committed a felony to allow that person to be approved to go on a Mission while the Church turned a blind eye to the felony that was committed.
People also leave when they have seen children bullied at Church and bring it to the leadership, who does everything in their power to ignore it because it does not involve their own children being victimized. Anyone that has been involved in the Church knows about the cliques and when children are bullied, frequently it is with the sons or daughters of the Bishop, Relief Society President or other leaders who have been raised with the opinion of entitlement.
I have also had the occasion to report a high ranking church official for misconduct. The regional representative was given the information on how this leader was victimizing many members of the church and initially it appeared that Regional Representative would take action. After not hearing back from him, I then called him and his whole story changed about investigating and talking to other victims. As it turned out the offending Church Official had a lucrative insurance contract with the regional representative who owned an insurance company. As a result he did not want to rock the boat so it was okay those who had been initially victimized were victimized a second time by the Regional Representative not taking action as he had promised.
One thing that really stood out for me is the wealth factor. Our ward was divided into two sections, those who have (wealth) and those who were doing the best that they could. All of the leadership positions were held by people who lived around the Bishop. (Wealthy section) Those people got the good home teachers and visiting teachers. Those members got calls when there was a church function or dinner. Those who lived on the other side, frequently had no visits, no contact when members where in the hospital and frequently no hello’s from the leadership when you would see them out shopping.
If you were divorced you are singled out that you must have done something wrong. I was once told that I could no longer hold a leadership position because of the divorce despite the fact that the x-wife is the one who left the marriage. I have also found out that if you are a single male raising kids on your own, do not expect any help from the Church, however if you are single and female they will do everything in their power to call you, stop by and visit you and help in any way that they can.
Probably the hardest thing to see is when people fall on hard times and are denied assistance from the Church when they have lost everything. I have watched many times when families have lost their houses, jobs and everything they had and being told by the Church that they needed to put more effort into seeking outside sources before asking the Church for help. They would sell one of two cars, turn off the cable, internet and really watch every dime that they spent. Then watching as the Church would provide monthly checks for members who overspend and live outside of their resources and receive a monthly check to pay for the Suburbans, BMW’s and other expensive vehicles rather than being told to downsize and make a proper budget.
As many have said in this article, I looked through the list and found it to be spot on. Its okay for the Bishop to have a yearly tithing settlement and ask me if I paid a full tithe, however if I ask the Church what they are doing with my tithing money I give to the Church every year, it is held in secrecy.
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I am not leaving but will be no active and not pay my tenth. I was punished of my Bishop because I did travel to Salt Lake City and had a meeting with Elder Randall K. Bennett who did a note for Neil Andersen about what happen in the meeting.I felt I couldn’t go through my Bishop because he should never have understood what I said so I fly to Utah from Sweden. I am a woman and it make it worse.
My Bishop said he had never been to Salt Lake City so I think it was also envy why he closed me to not be worthy to be in the Temple and now needed to built up trust in wht he is think I should do to get it…… NEVER ! …. I am a free person and don’t want to be judged and put in prison of my Bishop.
I had a testimony to Apostle Neil Andersen because Jesus Christ come home to me together with His Father and I have been educated by heaven and GOD have talking to me for 17 years now but there is no one picking up the messages from GOD I have to give and I think it is most because I am a woman and not a man.
If I had been a man I had been all over the world speaking from GOD.
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I left because, though I was raised to revere the priesthood and I those who held it, the leaders believed gossip from people who held higher position, rather than showing spiritual wisdom and true spiritual discernment. In my case, I was punished for anothers sin. Later the truth was revealed when the other persons actions caught up and revealed that persons true character. I asked for help, for a chance to speak to those in authority and was turned away, so there was nowhere to go but out. Later I found it was a blessing in disguise because I found out about Christianity and the Grace of God through the cross, which set me free from condemnation that I carried from my LDS background. I love my LDS friends and relatives… pray they find peace in Christ.
I agree that we should be focused on these types of reasons why people leave the church, but if you’re going to call this list comprehensive, wouldn’t you also have to include the fact that some people leave because they just lose interest or get offended or commit adultery? I’m certainly not making the case that this accounts for the majority or anything, but if we’re talking comprehensive, those reasons should be included as well. This list seems to me to be a comprehensive list of why people choose to leave the church because they stop believing in it, but there are many who still believe every point of disputed doctrine, and leave for other reasons. I hope that makes sense.
It’s not surprising that this is the first comment on this post. Some one ran in and threw up the old “must have gotten offended or been commiting adultery.” *sigh*
“There are still many who believe every point of diputed doctrine, and leave for other reasons.”
I don’t believe that there are many, if any, people that would really feel this statement describes them, and yet classifly themselves as having left. If people really believe the church is true, they aren’t that stupid. While it would be comforting to those who are still members, to think that a lot who have left do or did so because of sin, it’s not the case. It’s very narrow minded and egocentric to try and throw that in there, as though it accounts for a significant portion of those who leave. It demeans others who choose not to live as you do, as though they are simply not good enough to live your higher way. Open your eyes. Quit parroting what the church wants you to believe. If they left “to sin” as you wish were true, then they didn’t really leave, did they? They just went inactive.
John is talking about those of us who deliberately walk out because of our personal integrity, not the other way around.
I left Because of people. Not because of the doctrine. James has a good point.
I never left, I just stopped going to the ward(s) because of “shunning”. I still love being with LDS because I feel closer to God because of one book called DOCTRINES & COVENANTS PEARL OF GREAT PRICE, and BOOK OF ABRAHAM. The doctrine has changed my life. I do not come to the ward, and I never answer the phone when any one of the congregations or missionaries call me. I just live by the book. I go to D/C for all my needs with God, and pray to him and Jesus, I try to live by the ways that being a Mormon makes sense, because PEOPLE have changed it up, not God or Jesus, there is a message there and as I typed the word “MESSAGE” the lady on t.v. said “…there is a message there”… and as I typed message again, the woman said “.,..they took their message to the internet!” God speaks in many forms, and for me I use D/C/ POGP. You should go there now and just read it after praying to God on your issues and then take note of dates, like last two digits of your birth date, or the day it is when you prayed and you go right to that section. E.G., I am having many problems with my family so I started praying on it and then turning to the sections of all our births, meaning Section 61, section 27, section 59, section 31 (which to me tells me everything I needed to know) and you read it, but read it like it’s “veiled” in some places and pick out certain words and phrases and string them together as if God is talking about you, not whatever it is they are discussing in the book and you use your pen to underline and circle the words and sentences you see, and from there you keep looking and the answers come as to why… ” In my case Section 31 of D/C POGP told me I suffer many family ailments and that I will never be the doctor to my family, nor will I see them much, they’ve turned toward the vanities of the earth and turned from God. Yada yada” But I’ve used it to find God without having to have a visiting teacher or go to the church or even Conference where I’d be shunned and unhappy, because the congregation feels that on a whole and was jealous of me because I could read doctrines like that. That’s not easy for the rabble, but so easy now for me. Go to it, and you will see. The Mormons left me one thing and that one thing is D/D P.O.G.P.
Your religion broke your brain and made you insane. 🙁
I respect your opinion; but Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. Not a book with questionable validity. Read the bible.
So you don’t seek the Bible for answers. The Mormons left you one thing – confused.
There is time for everything. A time to come and a time to go. When People join the church we don’t ask them why they joined. When they leave, we become alarmem, and begin to ask them questions. It is time to go, period.
because its a false church of satan only after your money
@fred grant & time to go — The sooner the people of this planet realize that there is NO “true” church and that there is no god / heaven above nor devil / hell below and, more importantly, people can stop being willfully ignorant about mystical belief systems; then (once people wake up) we can all start to move forward as a species.
The god or gods that prognosticators claim to exist are only those that men have created for the purpose of controlling the simple minded and for the manipulation of the weak spirited dullards that can’t even think themselves out of a box. It amazes me that people can still claim a belief in any form of mystical beings and (even more amazing) still desire to be aligned with any form of religion.
So, I am glad to see that you both are finally moving on!
This is not so much a reply as a comment on William’s post.
While most atheists claim their belief there is no God is based on reason, I haven’t seen their reasons or reasoning even though I’ve asked quite a few times now.
See what William wrote:
“The god or gods that prognosticators claim to exist are only those that men have created for the purpose of controlling the simple minded and for the manipulation of the weak spirited dullards that can’t even think themselves out of a box.”
Hardly facts or careful reasoning? Dr. Borruso, who believes in God, has pinned remarks such as the above with some precision:
To quote from Silvano Borruso’s The ART of THINKING, p.45: “A widespread one is the argument ad hominem, directed at the person who argues instead of being directed at what is being said (written).
The lowest, and meanest, type of such an argument is the direct insult. Reviling an opponent and covering him up in abuse was common practice in pre-internet days; it is now attaining mammoth proportions in the so-called social (in reality grossly anti-social) media.”
Atheists dismiss St. Thomas Aquinas’ five proofs there is a God.
So I’m waiting for an atheist to come up with six (better) proofs there is no God.
There is time for everything. A time to come and a time to go. Let them go in peace. when they joined the church, no one asked them why. When they leave, we become alarmed. Let them go. Why do we feel pain when they leave.
A friend from Africa served a mission in california in the the 80’s. He brought African-Americans to the church–because, they were the people he could reach. His mission President’s wife told him not to bring African-Americans to the church. Later, his White companion told him in the face that he would not go to Heaven (because Heaven is made for whites). At this point he had baptized a few African Americans into the church. No one asked these Africans why they joined the church. Down the years, when they have read enough of church history, experience a whole lot, they decided it was time to go away. There and then, local leaders began to ask why they were departing in droves. The answer is that it is time to G, O, go –period.
On the east coast, somewhere in Virginia a girl from the west coast of Africa was given a list of names(in-actives). Two hundred in all. Coming from a prominent LDS family in Africa, she was given this list, perharps, she could recognize and influence some to come back to the church. This girl told me, the Africans who left the church have reasons. The racist nature of the church, racist principles, checked history, Lies, deceit, Secrecy,lack of transperency; while claiming “this the only true church.”
Who told you this is the only true church? JESUS?
The African Missionary finished his mission and went home. Told his experience to a number us. Later, we came face to face with the blacks-will- not-go-to-heaven thing. My response is that if I end up in heaven, i know there is something wrong. You why? I have been preparing for hell all my life. I know I will do very well in hell without Lies, Deceit, and Secrecy.
Hlh
I believe that there’s something that anyone can learn from another. I’ve found that there is only one Lord only one Faith, and only one baptism. If you or I were plan unregenerated sinners and we said that Jesus died for mankind, will this be untrue because of who said it? Even Satan quoted scripture, and what he said was true. All I am saying is like my mom used to tell us, you have to treat everything like you are eating fish, eat the meat and don’t get choked on the bones.
That’s why I’m leaving because of the people and the missionaries. I just realized that the people at the church judge you and the missionaries they really don’t help learn the gospel. So im better off going somewhere else
I believe we’re doing ourselves a disservice if we don’t at least acknowledge that the old stereotypes have a kernel of truth to them. When it comes down to it, some people leave because they don’t like the lifestyle. Many others don’t technically leave, but are inactive because they believe the church’s truth claims but can’t or won’t follow the restrictions. I would call these folks “Jack Mormons”.
I think it’s also fair to characterize some people as being offended. The key point that TBMs miss is that these folks weren’t offended by other people in their wards. They were offended by the institutional church’s actions in the past or present. For example, I wasn’t offended by anyone in my ward and I’m happy whenever I run into them. But I was very offended by the church’s actions during the Prop 8 campaign and its treatment of women and minorities, as well as by the church’s efforts to continue to prop up the Books of Mormon and Abraham as historical documents in the face of overwhelming conflicting evidence. I’m also offended by how apologists lie and obfuscate in order to try to keep people in the church. So to say I left because I was offended isn’t entirely inaccurate.
But like you, I don’t believe the old stereotypes describe anything but a very small minority of folks who choose to remove their names from the records after having been previously very active.
@Steve — Great reply and very well said. I too agree that it is not the members that are offensive, it is the SLC leadership that continues to turn a blind eye to the myriads of documented and irrefutable evidence that shows that: Joseph Smith was not really a prophet (yet the Corp of the First Presidency still likes to profit off of it); The Book of Mormon is all fiction; the Book of Abraham (and the PofGP) is a fiction, and; on and on.
Many, on this site, have commented back to me thinking that I hate the Mormon church — which, frankly is not true. I walked away from it many years ago for several reasons, the biggest one being: I had grown up and matured in my understanding and realized that all religions were based upon mysticism and had NO basis in truth; therefore, if all religions were not true, then Mormonism (which is supposedly built on early Christianity) was just as false, if not more so.
Those that try to argue any of this with me just further bolster an observation that was made by Carl Sagan, speaking of why people tenaciously stick to a belief system that has been proven to be false: “You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe.”
I am as angry about the historical cover up and whitewashing. However if the church authorities came completely clean, there would be such massive defections of members that the church would be bankrupt shortly. There would be empty temples and church meeting houses and no missionaries. Rather than push the church off a cliff, the GA’s are lowering it by rope. I am 61 and dying so it doesn’t matter that much to me except that having a faith crisis while suffering a painful death is to me an unpardonable sin committed by the only true and living church. However all the children that we raised and grandchildren will have to eventually suffer through lowering of the rope. Good is not enough for future generations to put up with all the nonsense being a member entails. It only proves to me there is no God. Which things I never would have supposed.
@Lgaj — Well stated and I can relate to your anger. Nothing worse that living a good portion of your life to discover that a major part of it was devoted to a lie. Or worse, you might not have ever had personal witnesses yet, you trusted your family / parents / small Mormon community / etc…all of whom bore their witness that they “knew the church was true…” and how could THEY ALL be wrong — right? Then, to learn that the Corporation of the First Presidency (yes, the Mormon church is a corporation more than it is a church — just look at their ledger) the prophet and apostles all knew the real truth and made the choice (over PROFITS) to not reveal the true history, nor to share the truth about Joseph Smith, to cover up the truth about the Book of Mormon (that is 100% fiction) and that the Book of Abraham (P. of G.P.) was a manufactured fantasy…and on and on. Even the Joseph Smith story was changed so many times that the final version, which was also made up, was what the Corporation of the First Presidency finally approved (for missionary purposes) many years after Joseph’s death.
So yes, it is all a sad and sorry state of affairs when a religion (built upon mysticism and manufactured fraud) attempts to trick and manipulate people to further its scam to swindle peoples savings for the purpose of a few [Definition of a Scam: A confidence game or other fraudulent scheme, especially for making a quick profit; swindle].
Enjoy the fact that you have finally found the truth so that you could truly be set free.
I believe in God and Christ. “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Einsteins theory of relativity states that time and space are one in the same. In the beginning was a time, the heavens and earth were the space. But, what was going on before the “beginning”. Time and space still existed, it just wasn’t our time, or our space. It is the science behind the concept of eternity. World religions discovered this long before science did. They must be given credit for it. One day man will have a cure for all disease and the ability to abstract DNA from cadavers and recreate life from what was once dead. If this is the criteria to become God, then some, if not all me will become Gods to one degree or the other. As far as commenting on the Mormon question. I will only say that I am deeply saddened by the thousands who have been excommunicated for committing far less sins that Joseph Smith himself, and believe they have no chance of celestial glory, short of being re-baptized. No 3 men,1 or 2 of which will become inactive within 3 years could ever yield such power. If the truth is Anti-Mormon, maybe Mormonism is Anti-Truth. Just a thought.
An inactive Mormon
The mormon church is all about money, they make every year 7 billions dollars. They should give at lease 50 millions to St jude hospital for
children with cancer, but no they rather spend money on malls, investment, ranching and god knows what. Also, I hate the mormons because
most of them belong to the kkk organization. They love money. Bottom line is that they are a colt. They are sick puppies and are gays.
KKK………..KKK…………KKK………..KKK…………KKK…………I heard the leaders of the wonderful brotherhood of KKK members have master keys to every temple in the world, and use them to have gay sex. Hahahahah………………what a weirdo
OH YOU ARE SO RIGHT ON.JOE WAS A FALSE PROPHET AND SO ARE ALL THAT FOLLOWED HIM..ITS SURE NICE TO BE OUT OF THE CULT
my wife konnie believes all there bull shit,,her dad left but she still believes.wants to give all our money to the cult..not me I quit going screw them lieing bastards
Or maybe they received a witness from the Holy Ghost that it is true. And have received it in sacred ways that they cannot deny. I don’t think you can fully comprehend divine truth without the witness of the Holy Ghost. When left to your own intellect, it’s very easy to intellectualize yourself away from truth. In most cases the things of God cannot be proven through the ways of the world or the natural man. But that does not mean they don’t exist. I for one know that you have no proof whatsoever that the Book of Mormon is fiction. nor could you ever produce any. But there’s no getting through to someone like you who is so bitter against the church, for whatever reason, that you refuse to acknowledge a higher power greater than your own. Pitiful. One thing you can be sure of though, god still loves you, not because of who or what you are, but because who and what he is. And unconditionally loving father.
@Klaus — Just wondering if you noticed the site name of this blog? If not, then for your information, it is called: Why Mormons Leave! You should consider that prior to responding again.
Anyway, I appreciate your response since it goes right to the top of the list of myriads of other examples of willful ignorance. Your irrational justifications are similar to those of the person described in the story by Carl Sagan titled: The Dragon In My Garage…to which in his final observation he states: “…to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.”
Hopefully you will wake up (some day) from the mystical delusion you call religion and that you will be able to finally enjoy your life, the way life should be enjoyed; that being a life of reality, not one of living in a fairytale.
Klaus, You might want to consider the information in these videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl_TrvIIcBY&index=2&list=PLDm0HUTx59Y25hDWf4Bf_zqS_XtN36piP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJMSU8Qj6Go&index=4&list=PLDm0HUTx59Y25hDWf4Bf_zqS_XtN36piP
Klaus,
There is ample proof the Book of Mormon is fiction.
Witnesses have given estimates of the size of “book” kept under covers and of its weight.
Emma Hale Smith, JS’s wife, used to move it around when doing her cleaning.
If an average of the sizes quoted for the “book” is taken and a calculation done assuming the “book” was really on gold plates, its weight would be round about 200 lbs.. The estimate of the witness(es) was 50 lbs. No body would make this mistake. Imagine Emma moving 200 lbs around to do her dusting!!??
JS did not translate from the gold plates. Sometimes the “book” was not even in the same room when JS had a seer stone in a hat as he dictated to Oliver Cowdery!
2 Nephi 31:21 has a very precise statement of the doctrine of the Trinity. The LDS rejects the Trinity believing there can be three Almighty Gods! If one God is all mighty, the other two can’t be, can they?
Two missionaries said, “Even if you prove that the Book of Mormon is wrong and Joseph Smith is wrong, we’d still belong the the church.”
And there you have it, the church is a very comfortable, and no doubt pleasant, place to be … provided you don’t critically examine the beliefs. It does help folk to live good lives at the human level, but it is missing one important element:
Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life and He promised: the truth will make you free.
That the Book of Mormon is a plagiarized (much from the KJV!) fiction concocted by JS, with his brilliant imagination, and Oliver Cowdery … is just one such truth that could free you.
There are lots of others. For example, JS claimed a “Personage” told him in a vision that the creeds of all (other religions) are an abomination. If one goes through the widely used Apostle’s Creed verse by verse, one can see that each verse is backed up by, sometimes many, verses directly from the Bible. The Apostle’s Creed is completely Biblical – so the “Personage” who would consider this creed to be an abomination would be …. Satan, no?
Pisherratt, thanks. It helps. Last night missionaries came by and stayed for over 3 hours. We didn’t do any lessons, just sat around talking and having a great time, talking of our experiences, they saw photos of my family, and told me to stay with the same ward. I am. Did they just do that because they wanted to do it, or because the church found out I’m unhappy with some stuff, and they were TOLD to do it.Thank you so much. But I have to know the ins and outs of this place.
the lds church is a fraud from the begaining..I am out and free no more money to the cult from me..no gold plates no visit from god..all a dam lie
the lds church is a money machine for 15 old horny bastards that isis is going to kill
You are insane dude! and don’t know what you are talking about. Are you ESL? because your English is horrible when you express yourself.
I left when I found out there were no golden plates.that joe was a lier a sex pervert.that he never talked to god..there is no marrage in heaven..the lds temples are money machines..you got byo pay to use them..wear there freaking hooolly under wear that aint worth a shit..there holly priest hood I a bunch of shit it don’t work ever..just more dam lies..take take the sack of your head so ypou can see the truth,,not just there dazm lies…john dahlem did and he saw the truth lust like the 2 steak presidents in England did..its the biggest dam lie iver
your one of the head in a sack Mormons with no brains..you believe what ever the cult tells you.your so freaking dumb,just spread your legs so they can make more just like you..moron mormon
@rose harris
Why do you think this? That is nothing like the church, you have obviously never been. Learn English.
???????????????????????????????????….did you research enough?………..not only mormon churches want the money….all of the other churches like catholic ,christians,greek churches and more got money from the members..you moron!
James didn’t say it was the only reason; he simply said it should be on the list. I know many people who were excommunicated and begged to not be! He’s right to say it belongs on the list. Your lengthy rebuttal to his point was ridiculous. Oh, and heaven forbid that anyone who left the Mormon Church could have been stupid!
That people you’re talking about never left. They are just inactive. If you still a believer you haven’t left.
How original. How many people do you know that were willing to give up a place in the celestial kingdom because somebody offended them? What you are claiming is that somebody that still believed would be so short sighted as to leave up all hope of an eternal family simply over hurt feelings. The reason it wasn’t included is because it’s never the reason.
I just read over 200 reasons why people have left the church and almost every one of them infer that they were indeed offended by a bishop, the bretheren, etc. I myself was once in a position where my own sins kept me away and I became paranoid that I was being judged by everyone and I started to question things as a way to justify my behavior, which was inconsistent with any Christian teachings. I had lost the spirit, and that is what happens. I came back, but if I would have left, I know I would not have attributed it to my sins or the loss of the spirit, but rather something else, and I would have probably honestly believed it too.
Your last statement is almost certainly categorical, and you almost certainly use slanted language throughout the reply. Your reply is not valid from a Critical thinkers standpoint, thus giving you almost no credibility.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life,” – It’s so sad that the majority of Mormons misunderstand that eternal life if a gift guaranteed for ALL that believe in Him- Clearly a misinformed, misguided, misdirected church that thankfully I no longer am a part of! And just to make it very clear – I left Mormonism of my own free will because after 43 years I realized that I could not relate to the LDS people or culture. And God still loves me and blesses my life. In fact my life is 100% improved since leaving Mormonism over 6 years ago. Knowing what I know now I wish I would have had the courage to leave sooner !
Thanks, James!
I agree that the ball starts rolling for many people with a disagreement or offense. Most if not all members see the LDS church as representing Jesus, therefore, they conclude it is unconditionally loving. If a member makes a mistake of a large enough magnitude to be brought before a bishop and start an official repentance process, it many times opens the door for questioning the church. Members are treated so abusively in this process, it is unsettling, so it starts them searching. None of us see ourselves as having it ever happen to us, its the other guy. I watched a friend literally raked over the coals in a “court of love”, which is pretty much abuse with a smile on its face. Not all offense has to be this severe, just having two members disagree over inspiration on how to proceed in a calling can be enough to get people Googling. I watched a YW president and a bishop in a pissing contest over a BOM challenge. He was able to pull rank on her and trump her inspiration because his was higher in position. The offense can be the initial reason for leaving, but after a few moments on the computer, the reason for leaving becomes based on more substantial reasons.
James. You’re kidding, right?
This is absolutely a valid point. My brother, who was excommunicated for adultery has no interest or intention of ever returning to the church, but he rebuked me for denouncing the truth claims of the gospel. He absolutely believes Joseph Smith was a prophet, he just doesn’t see the value of returning to the church.
This is a a rarity – if it’s even true! Is he really staying out of the church so he can be an adulterer? I seriously doubt he is honest about his reason –
I joined the Mormon church 6 months ago. Was baptized and all the fixings. I began to really dig the folks at our ward. They were all nice, open to me and were friendly. Things have so changed. I am in the church and feel good about that, but now I feel I’m being shunned by them. Many women that once spoke to me no longer look my way in church. One woman and her husband have started shunning me, and the other day i go in and the person that gives them a ride said they were not in church. Then later I saw them. The wife saw me and ran up to me and said, “Oh, are you hiding?” I explained I was not, and walked with her to Sunday school. Get in there, and she seemed the only one that was going to sit with me. She whispered in my ear as we began to listen, “Murmuring? murmuring!?” I whispered back “Shunning me, don’t talk about me, no shunning, no murmuring”. But she was kidding, I was not. And she is not a well woman but no one told me. So now I find myself sitting isolated from them, sitting alone in one long pew. Why are they doing it when I pay my tidings, more than I’m supposed to, come to church, read the Book of Mormon and show them I care and respect them and god. What’s the problem. Why won’t they talk to me or want to be my friend? What did I do wrong. I am 50 years old, female, married (non Mormon man), live well, am not crazy, but a bit over the top at times in a good way. I am over joyous. Do you suppose they think I want to be there because they can do something for me? I want to have a better relationship with God, so I find myself being shunned, I can feel it. Am I wrong? Help?
I don’t know what you have been smoking. Obviously, you are not too enlightened. You don’t need to try too impress all those other morons to have a relationship with God. Who cares what the hell they think. What matters is you and God. Live your life the best way you can and always believe and have faith. God helps those who try to help themselves. Eventually things will start to turn your way, believe me, having faith can be a “pain in the ass”. Finally, I just said, “God I am yours”, “Do with me what you want”. My life turned around, I don’t know how it works, but it does.
From a Catholic.
This shunning I felt had nothing to do with God, the church doctrines or the church of LDS. It had to do with the ward I was in, it was not the right one for me. I am closer to god because I was baptized the right way, in the Mormon way, I wanted to be part of it, but because I embraced BOOK OF ABRAHAM and could really read more into it than anyone in that ward of actors, producers and snot head Relief society women! They got so scared. One woman took me aside after hearing me talking about the symbols in Book of Abraham, which was God talking to me. I use Book of Abraham to get closer to God, he speaks to me through that doctrine! I love god and feel so much closer, and have kept a notebook called “LETTERS TO AND FOR GOD” and everything I’ve written in there has come true thru God. I learned earlier on in that ward how to pray to God and get what I want out of him. He in turn gets a lot out of me now too. I am studying alone, do not go to church. The Relief Society disliked me. Some of the women thought I was a bit of a ROGUE, but they were afraid I’d know more than they did. They were afraid of me. They all started to shun me, not everyone, but the important ones. Also, a girl kept coming up to me and saying “The Congregation doesn’t get you and they never will!” So i knew then. And when I went to get involved in meetings and activities I noticed it the most. My own visiting teacher shunned me as well as people I thought liked me. They moved away from me, one old woman said she was so jealous of me because I could read the scriptures and know more than most do, underlining the parts that pertained to me. She loved how I did it. I can read and get answers from God himself, and Jesus. I plan to publish my book about going through the process of being inducted, baptized, went to Mormon temple, and paid my tidings, etc, and how things declined, and through it all my relationship with God increased. He does speak to me in my subconscious mind, I feel him in my life more than ever, like he never left, and he didn’t. But I will NEVER go back to that ward, but am looking for a new one, and studying on my own. What saved me and showed me that the shunning was going on was “DOCTRINE & COVENANTS PEARL OF GREAT PRICE”. I read it every day and have learned so much more than even Joseph Smith knew. Lots of his notes on the Egyptian drawings Abraham drew were WRONG, or off, he was on the right track, but I filled in the blanks and spoke in great length with the Bishop, my teacher, some in the congregation and of course the missionaries. I learned that missionaries and elders are not cracked up to what I perceived them to be. I was hurt and ran away from the ward, not the LDS church. I love being Mormon, and one day I will find my place. In the meantime, I am close to God because of D/C’s Pearl of Great Price. I have learned much about myself through that book. I love it. Thanks for your interest. I will find my way back in.
Thanks for your interest. I will find my way back in.
Don’t be too sure.
The truth will make you free – Jesus’ promise – and the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price and the D & C are not the truth. You could do the research!
Start off with D & C 132 which threatens Emma Hale Smith that she will be “destroyed” if she doesn’t go along with Joseph Smith’s promiscuity … at least 34 “wives”, 11 already married.
The Christian God would never say anything like that.
What you could do is read a Chapter of the New Testament each day …. that will bring you love, peace and joy.
Your faith is between you and your Eternal Father. In my life, I have tried to commit to always do what is right even if those closest to me disappoint me. I believe the Savior also went through this when he was betrayed in one of the worst ways by someone very close to him. I have found that when I am outgoing and friendly, I attract those who treat me the same way. I hope that you can find those with whom you can surround yourself that see you as your Heavenly Father sees you. I can see the desires of your heart, so I know that others will too.
“wouldn’t you also have to include the fact that some people leave because they just lose interest”
9. c. “…Experienced church as boring, mind-numbing, waste of time and energy, draining, uninspiring.”
16. a. “Lost interest in Mormonism/church activity (i.e., apathy) ”
“commit adultery”
16. b. “Broke a minor or major “commandment” and experienced debilitating guilt/grief and/or had a bad experience with membership and/or leadership, and decided subsequently to disaffiliate.”
They’re already covered.
It’s not that I have lost interest. I have changed in a good way. But, the congregation doesn’t seem to like me. That’s it. Not bored, not losing interest, even closer to god than I ever have been. I want to be part of more activities but I have a condition that prevents me from having a normal life sometimes, and that cuts into my church activities. I don’t like to miss church, I thrive. It’s that the people in that place don’t seem to dig me enough to call me up. I am working still with the Missionaries, they are cool. i’m still feeding them once a month, trying to get more involved, I have an ailment that prevents me to having a normal everyday life, just pieces of normalcy, and mostly that is in church. I wish they’d just like me, I like them and I love being Mormon. Thanks.
THE MORMON CHURCH IS FAKE RELIGION. ALL THEY WANT IS THE 10% TIES AND ALSO, I THINK MEN ARE SICK PUPPIES.
THE MORMON CHURCH MAKES 7 BILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR, TELL ME IF THIS IS NOT FOR THE MONEY. WHEN WERE
THE BROWN SKIN AND BLACKS ADMITTED TO THE CHURCH?
@ carlos mason — It has always been about the money! However, Joe Smith did not restrict or discriminate against skin color and allowed all to join. When Joe was running the church he allowed black men to hold the priesthood; however, after his death and the Mormons relocated to what is now known as Salt Lake City, that was when the real bigoted attitudes of the new leadership became obvious. All black men were censured from any priesthood activity and new black members were not allowed any positions…baptism was the only thing allowed for black people. It was not until the 1960’s & 1970’s when the financial impact became obvious that the then president, Spence Kimball, claims to have been inspired to once again allow black members full embrace of all the same things as the white members.
When anyone looks at the over-all wealth of the LDS church and the corporate nature of the leadership, it becomes quite obvious it is about money. Of course, to the lowly members, they all think it is about love, Jesus, apple pie and all other “good news” things and they have no realization or understanding of the true nature of this or any other religion….all of which has nothing to do with god or salvation!
I FEEL every needs to Doctrines & Covenants Pearl of Great Price, and see for yourself that there is a picture of the great circle with all Egyptian writing and figures on it, but it you look closer you see the whole story of Jesus Christ and I believe there IS A GOD and A JESUS. Sorry we can’t come to terms with it. I may have messed up with the Mormons, but I know God and Jesus are there for me, because I pray hard and get results. I may not be a Molly Mormon, and folks may not take to me because of my offbeat ways, then I turn to God and Jesus and they comfort me FAKE RELIGION OR NOT, I feel something, I felt something with LDS, I still feel it. I God and Jesus are not sitting up there as men, but as energy and spiritual essences, because mankind does not know how to totally control mankind. That’s why D/C is VEILED, so the naysayers and fakes and enemies of the Church and God won’t dampen the message. I say LDS may not be totally right for me, and I am no Molly Mormon, but Doctrines & Covenants Pearl of Great Price has saved my frickin’ life and has brought me so much closer to what God and Jesus are and represent. So the rants of no God or Jesus on this site shows us there are many sad people and the can’t be part of the social religion. ME???? I am an oddball person and that is why I didn’t fit in and they shunned me in two wards. I had to get away from them, and I did. But I am still with the church and care about being with LDS, and have more of a belief in God and Jesus, and pray and ask them to help me all the time! It was not all for nothing.
gays are gods children to but the Mormons hate everybody..evan some Mormons..i think isis should kill all Mormon leaders..bishops stake presidents
What a terrible thing to suggest. Mormons do not hurt or kill people nor do they force anyone to join their church or do anything to anyone if they decide to not attend or leave their church. To suggest we kill anyone who chooses to live their religion, just because you may not agree is sick. You are at the height of bigotry and intolerance, it is calling the kettle black. Mormons do not hate gays. On the contrary, they believe they are God”s children and should receive love and respect.Many religions have the same directions concerning the gay community but are not so welcoming as the Mormons.If you read a little and become educated on the subject, you will find many faiths believe the gays should be killed. I have gay friends who are among the most kind, generous and talented people I know.They are not mormons but are treated badly by people on the street and at work that has nothing to do with religion.. Some are treated the worst by their own parents. Looking at the mormons as part of their problem is neither fair or accurate.
I agree with you 1000 per cent ..all Mormon books are false just like the church and the leaders…its about money for 15 old horny men to enjoy not working and traveling the world and I just hope isis comes to genral conference with bombs and guns and let the Mormon blood flow thew the streets
Incitement to violence via the internet can get you a visit from law enforcement.
I’ve been reading so much about how folks who left the church said it was fake, Joseph Smith was a sex maniac, yada yada! REMEMBER this, I feel that the religion end of Mormon is the key to understanding God and Jesus. As for the folks in the church, SUCKVILLE! I saw them for what they really were, and the missionaries and Elders. When I first started, I thought they were so holy and good, but I was wrong, and I found out that a lot of Mormon kids are mentally sick with Bipolar, Austism and a host of other mental disorders. I’d see the couples and kids and folks only in the church and wondered why none of them ever called and invited me over to eat or get a lift to church. Little by little I started to realize it;s not about them, it’s about GOD AND JESUS. Those two are NOT fake, NOT SEX manics etc. And Joseph Smith was just a vehicle to get the message to folks like normal us, who thought being Mormon and hanging with Mormons was something else, but it’s all veiled by God so we can learn slowly about people, scriptures and faith. I tried two wards and both said, “Oh, the congregation doesn’t get you!” They shunned me, etc. I stopped going to church after I did 3 events and saw the truth in the PEOPLE, not the religion. I have gotten so much closer to god and Jesus, but the congregations, NO WAY, no one ever calls, inquires or asks what’s up. I told my visiting teacher we were going to cool it, and he has not called to see about me one time since. So I know what’s up. I love DOCTRINE & COVENANTS PEARL OF GREAT PRICE because it has helped me understand why the congregations shunned me, murmured against me and other such crapola. I use the doctrine, not the congregation. I never go to church anymore, who wants to pray and take sacrament with folks that are not real, it’s them, not the religion, I didn’t TECHNICALLY leave the church, just the congregation, I JUST DON’T GET THEM!
I left the church because the tithings was way to high for me to pay. They have was to many rules to follow. I love the church.
It does . My Mother grew up in Idaho and was a very True Believer in Christ and in the LDS Church . She wanted her children to know everything she could teach us about her being a Mormon and hoping someday that we (Her Kids) would get involved and attend LDS Churches wherever we were as adults also , but my Father was raised in Presbyterian Church and had a big influence on my other siblings so they didnt listen as much as I did to my Moms stories and now at 47 years old I really have a strong desire in my Heart to finally become a member and for the first time get Babtized as a Mormon, with the LDS Church. My Grandparents were born and raised Mormon and thier parents as far back as My Mom knew . Never a bad word about her upbringing and such good Family Values she was taught from the LDS Church growing up Mormon and I want to follow in my Family from my Moms side now with the LDS Church as a Mormon. DJ Karnes .
http://www.unknown-pearls.com/proof_evidence.html
People are like doubting Thomas, they want proof.
If they take time to know God, they would not be leaving.
Read and ask God if this is true or not, and by the power of the Holy Ghost will tell you all truths.
http://www.unknown-pearls.com/proof_evidence.html
Real Proof and Physical Evidence by Moses and Daniel from the Bible and the Great Pyramid in Egypt.
I agreed 100% James..People leave the church because the devil finally win them over to commit to the world of sin Those interested in the signs of the end times often take note of a warning given by Paul to the Thessalonians, speaking about the return of Jesus Christ to earth. He writes, “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first” (2 Thessalonians
In your list you refer to Bishops and State Presidents… that should be Stake Presidents.
I think with most it is a combination of many things, although the cascade made be triggered by just one thing. That’s a pretty comprehensive list, I’d say.
Like I said to my bishop, it’s not one thing. It’s everything on top of everything.
I’d be curious about any possible differences among the people who leave for different reasons. E.g., is it more or less damaging to leave largely for historical reasons vs. spiritual reasons? Etc.
Hi, Adam. Personally I left for quite a lot of the reasons above, but, yes, coming to know that Joseph Smith Jr. was just a lying sociopath who had nothing “revelatory” to offer really hurt the most. As some mentioned, if this church were indeed founded upon spiritual truths, one might stay in spite of some of the other problems.
I think this item will require a little bit more clarification:
“Rejection of the doctrine of eternal families, which actually breaks up (not unites) families, and does so via coercive means.”
Micah – Is this at all better? “Rejection of the doctrine of eternal families, which some experience as actually de-unifying families in this life, or unfairly and unnecessarily creating fear about the separation of families in the afterlife – often through coercive means.”
People say President Monson is psychologically incompetent?
Yes. It is pretty well-understood that President Monson has either Alzheimer’s or dementia. I’ve heard this through numerous sources myself….though have no first-hand knowledge in this regard.
I’d heard those rumors back around the time the papal shift occurred in the Catholic Church. For someone supposedly so impaired, President Monson’s done a great job in meetings.
It is now time overdue for change of leadership in the church.I am sorry to have to say this and it will upset some people but it needs to happen soon.Utorph in the obvious choice.He is visionary and he is a problem solver.Thats the person you need to have the leadership of thechurch.Dont deny the church this person who would bring the church forward with his strength and ability.
Felt guilt over the handling of political propositions. http://www.examiner.com/article/california-ethics-commission-finds-mormons-guilty-on-13-counts-of-late-prop-8-campaign-reporting And the suicides of young gay men and how they were swept under the carpet.
Thanks, Chris!
wow you are such a hater,John. For someone who presents himself as open and progressive, your comments betray your narrow thinking
john is absoluly right on
The LDS church will NEVER accept any homosexuality. And more will be hurt from it. I know some church members in a LDS ward don’t judge a non active lifestyle homosexual. BUT still people do! Depression hits in when judged so much by the people in the ward, the bishop and ect. up. I’m so scared to go back. That it could lead to my death.
Wow. That’s a pretty comprehensive list. All of those things apply to me to some degree, but initially it was that nagging feeling that either I was wrong at my core, or the Church wasn’t everything it had presented itself to be. It was finding the courage to take off the rose colored glasses and objectively examine things that lead to a complete collapse of my faith. Then all that other stuff you listed became real issues for me…
Katie, you must have been reading my mail! In my case I just had enough of feeling that not only did I not measure up by the LDS Church’s yardstick, I felt suffocated by its dogma and demands. The world is a wondrous place, and I was not allowed to associated with people who were not Mormon
I have been a member all of my life and I have had , and continue to have many non member friends. If someone tells you that you cannot have non member friends they are out of line. On the contrary , we are encouraged to be loving and kind and friends with all of whom we associate. Mormons are very busy in their church activity and are often misunderstood because they are often not as social outside their ward boundaries, even with other Mormons.
Thanks, Katie!
Very good. I’d suggest adding some reasons relating to succession problems. Why Brigham, instead of one of the others? Did Wilford Woodruff lead the church astray?
Thanks, Doug!
Wilford Woodruff was actually the prophet that caused my shelf to collapse. In reading Pure Mormonism: Wilford Woodruff’s pants are on Fire, I finally understood that the leaders of the LDS church rely on manipulation and hero worship to create the environment where leaders are put on the same playing field as God. WW lied about the founding father’s of the United States of America not having their temple work done previously. Since they had had their work done many times over in previous temples he lied about his vision of them. Since he lied about his vision of them he was a false prophet. Scary realization. I had never like Brigham Young, but I was willing to step over the mess he made by allowing myself to believe that only Brigham could have led the saints to Utah, but when I realized that even the accounts of people seeing him “look like Joseph” were all created post the event that belief collapsed too. So Yes, Willford Woodruff led the church astray.
A fairly common narrative members make who have *returned* to activity is that they “always knew the church was true,” even while they weren’t participating, but for one reason or another (friends, alcohol, wanted different path, other Sunday activities, etc.), they disassociated with the church for a period.
One of our HP instructors finds a way to mention his “30 years away” — from age 29 to 59 — almost every time he teaches the lesson. He’s just one among dozens that I’ve heard over the years, but he attributes it to “not committing any major sin, but just losing sight of my priorities and what matters.”
Thanks, Matt!
That’s a lotta reasons…and a lot of pain/hurt/disappointment/heartache.
I think you should put some Mormon films on there like “Saturday’s Warrior” ‘Sing;e’s Ward” and that one where the old lady checks her friggin mailbox everyday and never gets a letter and the day she finally gets a letter she DIES! And the letter was from her crappy kids telling her they were going to put her in a home! In fact put that one at the top of the list.
🙂
The reasons you are citing are reasons why people go inactive. This list is why people stop believing. Those that commit adultery and leave the church do not necessarily stop believing that it is true…
The above comment was a response to James….
hi John- disregard this if i missed it but in the ‘experienced-based’ reasons i would add ‘lost testimony after they were disfellowshipped’. (i.e. what i am going through/have been through for the past year or so.) great work!
Thanks, Jenny!
There are a few things I don’t see here. Maybe they are included in some of your other points.
1) Bribery. Especially in the early Utah days and in the years when the church was fighting the U.S. over polygamy. Abraham H. Cannon diary accounts of bribing politicians, a supreme court judge, a marshal. Accounts of bribing an aid to the president. Rumors of present-day bribes to further pioneering missionary work in foreign countries.
2) Learning there were several significant changes in the temple ceremony after being told the endowment was established with Adam and has always existed in its perfect form whenever God’s church has been on the earth.
3) Unease/disbelief of extreme parts of the temple ceremony that have since been removed (in what was said as well as some disturbing aspects of the rituals and clothing that have been changed).
4) Temple recommend interviews as tests of faith. Major commandments left out of the interview while a couple specifics like tithing and word of wisdom are disproportionately emphasized.
5) Undo influence of church over government in Utah (This was probably covered under your separation of church and state point).
I think this one points out one the church actually worries about: too much change. It’s definitely not mine (I think there is too little progress). But too much change or too quick change does cause some to leave, particularly if they are sold on the status quo or feel that it erodes trust in prophetic leadership for them.
Thanks, Angela!
Thanks, Andy!
Have you considered how folks with ego and control driven personalities may view Mormonism? A big part of religion especially Mormonism is to focus on a spiritual relationship with God and to exercise faith in Him. To allow this and the atonement to work in one’s life one must let go of being in control and let God guide one through the plan. The focus then becomes on others rather than oneself. This is commonly referred to as humility which many ego and control driven personalities struggle with. Thoughts?
I agree. Humility is stressed in the scriptures and I believe is a prerequisite to any spiritual relationship.
This is just a creatively worded “they left because they wanted to sin, or got offended” narrative. It defines “humility” as “doing the stuff the church tells you to” and implies that people who leave the church are therefore “prideful.” The reason that “wanted to sin” and “got offended,” aren’t listed is because they are almost never the reasons people leave the church.
Thanks, soju.
Thanks, Jerry!
Jerry, people with ego and control driven personalities–ie. narcissistic personality disorder–either delight in striving for control and leadership positions within the church by presenting their false fronts as humble and spiritual in order to manipulate others; or else they reject religion altogether because they are, in fact, gods unto themselves. Virtually everyone in every walk of life who has a position of high leadership or control is a narcissist, religious or not. By definition, a narcissist is incapable of empathy or spirituality. It is all an act.
yes…even someone like John. Let’s just be truthful here
JOHN IS JUST TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT SATANS CHURCH,,GOD BLES HIM
Good list. I think the next step is to look at the compound process of leaving and how it can be misinterpreted as being based on events when it should be centered around cognitive processes.
For example, an anonymous case:
1- committed adultery
2- wife committed mutual adultery
3- was excommunicated (wife remained in good standing)
4- was rebaptized
5- lost faith in Church for cultural/historical reasons
6- was distanced from family due to other longstanding conflicts aggravated by stressful situation
7- subsequently divorced
Believers will probably point to #1 and #2 as the grand overarching cause, despite the repentance and rebaptism process. For him, #5 was the big reason to leave the Church, and #5 reflected the events of the time. #5 is the only reason really based on cognitive reasoning, no matter how much that reasoning was affected by upheaval around him.
Thanks, Spencer!
I would love to have a discussion with you about the anger in the disabled community about the church and why they are leaving in droves. This doesn’t seem to be covered above.
I’m confused by this. In my experience, the disabled are treated more compassionately in the church than anywhere else.
Then this tells us you are not disabled. I am happy for you that you are not. I am, as a result of military service. I can tell you that as a disabled veteran life was very difficult. while I did receive some help from the church and the brethren…their major difficulty was the need for long term assistance. All the preaching from the pulpit that is done about self sufficiency does not change the fact that we are still disabled. You can’t work , you have applied for disability, you need assistance till your disability comes in. That can take awhile. Also in the state where I live you are denied the first go around anyhow. Only state in the nation that has an automatic first application denial. I and my son have been left homeless and wanting so many times it isn’t funny. Female veterans make up the fastest growing segment of the total homeless population. About 60 thousand and growing. Suicides are on the rise..post 9/11 veteran unemployment rate is 16.2 %. My ward had helped but shun me for being a poor disabled veteran. Bishop hasn’t called. No home teacher in 6 months. Sometimes I get a visiting teaching letter, lots of times I don’t. Haven’t gotten a call or visit from anyone in my ward since my last homeless gig in winter of 2015. Nothing…..expected to sleep on the same streets we soldiers swore to defend. Paying the price for freedom in blood, sweat and tears…giving mind, body and soul in service….to be rewarded with lonlieness, pain and poverty.
Did you ever see a letter from a local bishop telling a member and whomever else it might concern that no help from the church would be rendered? I have…its in my membership file. Let me tell you…as a disabled veteran…that made my day now didn’t it.
I agree Kelly. My sister in law has mental illness and her membership and roll in the church has come with so much pain that most the time she is inactive. I believe the feelings are similar to the gay communities. If you just pray and are faithful you will over come your illness. The voices you here are Satan trying to tempt you. Oh but don’t worry God is just testing you in this life and if you just survive this misery you will be rewarded in heaven. Let’s not even talk about the abysmal amount of training or no training that leaders have to deal with these issues.It makes it very difficult for these people to find a home in this gospel and even harder to stay if they do.
Thanks, Natalie!
It is very difficult for ANYONE with a mental illness to survive and thrive anywhere in the U.S. -even in this day and age. Americans and Mormons and atheists and Presbyterians and Catholics and and and… should be educated about mental illnesses. One in four of us experience mental illness…perhaps more. As a mental health nurse, I find it appalling that any of us could be so ignorant : school principals,teachers,M.D.s, PhD psych candidates, etc Spend some time in mainland China to see how the mentally ill are treated (not) and stigmatized.If you are taking a psych med you will not be let into the country. Ignorance is everywhere. EDUCATE instead of whining about these incidents. Be courageous. There is enough misery to go around without blaming a group of religious folk, most of whom are just trying to do their best.
Excellent point, Natalie. Not only do the leaders not have training, in some cases they will resist or thwart efforts of other ward members if it could expose the church to liability. I have a severely disabled son who is medically fragile and technology dependent. When my wife and I were having a difficult time obtaining respite care from government sources, some other ward members offered to be trained in how to care for him so my wife and I could go on dates or otherwise leave the house. When our bishop found out about it, he put the kibosh on it so fast it made our heads spin. He said that we could use tithing funds to hire a nurse, but that we couldn’t ask for or accept help from any other members of the ward.
Our son is now a teenager, and it’s only become more and more obvious how the church is not set up to help kids like him. Our deacon’s quorum adviser has asked if we’d be okay with him going to deacon’s quorum, but has balked at the idea of my wife or I being there to supervise, and the bishop won’t allow the adviser or other members to be trained on how to care for him. Scout camps are a complete joke as far as wheelchair access. Also, our aging church facilities are horribly substandard for dealing with incontinence issues. The handicap stall in the men’s room isn’t nearly large enough to accommodate my son’s wheelchair and provide room for me to lay him on the floor to change his diapers. I’ve noticed that some newer chapels in the area do a better job of this, but for some reason the church seems unable to remodel the bathrooms in our old chapel to make the handicap stalls wider or longer.
Kelly – I did include the disabled on the list, but would love to learn more. Feel free to write if you feel up to it.
I left the church because the tithings was way to high for me to pay. They have was to many rules to follow. God doesn’t like homosexual, this is why homosexual, and gays aren’t aloud in the church. Read your scriptures of Genius.
Agree wholeheartedly. I know Natasha Helfer-Parker started doing a series of podcasts on people with mental health issues, but I don’t think the experience of someone who was either disabled themselves from birth or was raising a disabled child was adequately covered, and I’m speaking as someone who’s in both situations.
Wow, that’s an incredible list. Very well done.
I would add a few points (that may be somewhat covered by items already in the list, but are pretty important and distinct concepts in Mormonism):
To “Cultural Reasons / Cult-like characteristics”:
– obedience to leaders and the institutional church is often equated with obedience to a god
– criticism (especially public criticism) of the institutional church and its leaders is condemned
– teaching that some truths aren’t useful
To “Doctrinal Reasons”(?):
– rejecting Jesus’ New Testament teachings and embracing the pharisees’ New Testament positions (prophylactic rules are good, obedience without understanding is good per se rather than interpreting and using religious laws to achieve good, etc.)
Good additions ^^^.
Thanks, I Like Jesus!
John – What is the percentage breakdown of why folks leave? Curious to know how the comprehensive list is broken down. This would give a bit more insight and credibility to the list.
Sam – This is the next step!
This may be outside the scope of your research, but I would love to see a study on current attenders. What percentage are TBM, what percentage are cafeteria Mormons, what percentage are sitting in Sacrament meeting plotting their exit strategy, etc.
Kelly’s right about the disabled, and there should also be something about all types of people who don’t fit the “ideal”: divorced, single, mixed faith marriage, and so on for whom the touted ideals simply make them feel ostracized.
John: I wrote up a model for disaffection reasons by “geography” that might be helpful on StayLDS: http://staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4947&hilit=geographical+model+for+disaffection
Here’s a recap:
– Self. This geography includes things like your own sense of spirituality, relationship to God, and your own comfort with yourself. It can also be impacted by personal issues like depression or mental illness or even simple lack of confidence or uncertainty about your own views.
– Direct Family. This includes your marriage (if married) and children (if you have any) or those family members with whom you live or if there are some you see on a weekly basis. How comfortable do you feel within this sphere in being yourself, expressing your feelings and being accepted for who you are and what you believe?
– Extended Family. These are the people you see at reunions and funerals or monthly (or less frequent) dinners. How safe do you feel being open in this group? How accepted do you feel? Often our families (in which we were raised) have colored our understanding of religion to the point that it trumps the church’s actual teachings.
– Local ward / stake. Do you have friends in this group who accept you and listen to your views without judgment? Do you feel OK expressing your honest views in this group? What is your level of discomfort? Do local policies and leaders create an environment that is uplifting to you?
– Organizational church. Do you feel that church leaders are good people? Do church policies feel comfortable to you, like they are Christ-like and postive? Does the organizational church feel moral and uplifting to you? If it is mixed, how important are the negatives and positives relatively? Are there supportive people closer to you (at the local ward, stake, or family levels) who feel similarly or with whom you can talk about your disagreement and feel accepted? Does the church provide a unique benefit to you that you can’t get anywhere else?
– History. Do statements or policies of past church leaders make you feel disconnected? Do you feel past leaders were immoral or not acting in good faith or do you believe they were moral actors? Do you have concerns about historical issues that the church hasn’t disavowed or addressed or about those the church has addressed?
These are more about levels of comfort in these areas, but lack of feeling safe can create or foster disaffection.
Thanks, Angela!!!
I agree with Angela, John. I recognized my experience in many places on this quite exhaustive list, but the most compelling personal reason for me to leave seemed to be missing on the list (i.e.being single / not fitting the Mormon ideal of being married with a family). That invisible, living on the margins or even “left out” is exactly how I felt as a single, never married person in the church. So I suppose it doesn’t surprise me that we’re kind of missing on this list too. eek! Some single, middle-aged and older adults in the church experience living on an “island of misfits.” Often, nobody knew what, really to do with us or say to us, except to pity the single, never married women and berate the single, never married men. Of course, mostly we are assumed to feel included and loved, and of course, we are/were in one sense. But in another sense, I just never “fit in” or had as much in common with people who are married with children at church. Got very tired of feeling the sting of that every week and the sexual dilemmas posed by what would have had to be lifelong chastity. Had to leave. Other single people stay and don’t seem to have as much problem with it. I think they must have had to numb themselves to their actual experience, or they chose it very powerfully and happily. Not me. 🙂
Great comment on internal issues ie mental health and circular thinking
Could we number these reasons, so they can be easily referenced… Like A1, A2, S4 etc…. would make it much easier to reference…
Done! Will re-release soon!
I’d like to add something- I have not left but I’m currently dealing with the backlash of privately sharing my concerns with the bishop. I think why it’s easy to classify those who leave as “offended” is because the local church leaders are untrained in dealing with these members and they often are quick to use fear, not love when approached for help. If you go to talk to a bishop about your questions you’ll be asked to put them on the shelf but in exchanged YOU will be questioned week after week.” Where did you learn about the different vision accounts, book of Abraham etc- were you using anti mormon sites? Your children deserve a mother with a strong testimony.” I’m told not to throw the baby out with the bath water. “There’s more good than bad” in the church but because I questioned I’m now labeled as “struggling” and viewed as member who is more bad then good. You become the ward project. And get called into the principles office regularly to evaluate “where are you at with your doubts.” And that becomes offensive.
Thanks, Dani!
I think this is an enormous undertaking. Good on you John. There are so many subcultures in this group though. Will you break it down in demographics for lack of a better word. Such as, those who identify as liberals, disabled or mental illness, homosexual communities, intellectuals, those with money, those without. They might all leave because of history let’s say but their reasoning behind it comes from completely different places. Or is that too narrow and we are looking at the broader picture. This is all completely fascinating to me. No wonder psych 101 was one of my favorite classes. If you need any grunt work done let me know. I was a research assistant at BYU and love the hunt!
Thanks, Natalie!
Yikes. No wonder my “shelf” came crashing down recently. I never realized how many items were on it.
This isn’t a reason I left, but it was something that really bothered me when I was active. It’s a compilation of a few of the items already listed…I hope my explanation makes sense. I always felt like one of the main tenets of our religion was we were supposed to be Christlike in our love and service towards our fellow men. That we should have charity and compassion for those who are less fortunate than us, and share what we have with others. (Law of consecration?) Yet any time ANY kind of government assistance to the poor was brought up, it was met with judgement, scorn, criticism, etc. Church welfare? Amen, brothers and sisters. State welfare? PURE EVIL. It felt wrong to me that we will only help our own membership, and many, if not most, members oppose the government giving the same help to it’s citizens. (I know, I know, the church welfare makes it’s members work for the assistance. It also depends on the rest of the membership volunteering their time to make the program work.)
I was also frustrated by the church’s attitude of “serve ourselves.” When I was a member of the YW and RS presidencies, we would try to come up with service projects. I ALWAYS suggested we look for ways to serve in the community – at homeless shelters, senior citizen centers, Meals of Wheels, the schools, etc. My suggestions were regularly shut down in favor of serving the LDS community. One time the stake leadership chose going to the cannery and dry pack canning for members of the ward (who were all able to do it for themselves) over delivering meals to homebound senior citizens.
Can’t wait to read more of your work, John. Thank you for having the courage to tackle these issues.
A friend of mine left while at BYU because she claims she couldn’t handle the hypocricity of relief society leaders bashing Obama in one lesson and then instructing her how to apply for food stamps and have a baby on medicaid two minutes later.
Thanks, David!
Thanks, Shannon!
I would add (I didn’t see it but maybe missed it) the perpetuation of shady stuff like not putting dates on essays so they can be changed, changing talks and website info without listing that it has been revised leading people to wonder if they are crazy, buying up Hoffman forgeries.
Thanks, gertrude!
This is somewhat covered in the list in multiple points, but sometimes people’s life experience out in the world tells them something completely different from what they are told about the world in church. For many people, first hand experience trumps word of mouth and the more experiences that contradict church teachings, the more we disassociate from Mormonism.
I think the church is aware of this because they try and limit experiences “out in the world” when people are young- i.e. send them on missions straight out of HS, church-owned universities, encouragement to marry and start families at a young age, etc. But the internet has thrown a wrench in this model because now people can access information and have virtual experiences from the comfort of their own home and neighborhoods.
Thanks, Jonathan!
Please emphasize family members not being allowed to be with family members when they are married in the temple. That’s very divisive to not allow families to share one of the most important moments of their child’s or family members life simply because for one reason or another they are not considered “worthy”. Can we stop encouraging weddings in the temple and encourage them to be held outside the temple first so that all their loved ones can be included and then allow them to not have to wait a year to have their temple sealing done afterwards? This issue has caused so many a great deal of pain.
Thanks, square peg!
Which is why some people have a temple marriage and a civil marriage. I was civilly married almost three years ago, goting to the temple next month. im excited. Irs sad rhar you all, lost your faith, felt judge or. etc….
it doesn’t include my reason. But I was always an outlier. Probably includes every other reason I’ve heard though. Good list.
I call my reason “too Mormon for the church”. Or if you want to categorise it, call it pragmatic-idealist. (I’m not making this up: I wrote about it at the time for NOM) Sine I was a child I have been obsessed with global poverty. Even as a TBM, it was more important to me than the church. There came a time when I realised that I could do far more good outside the church than within it. (Mainly because if I have any talents they are in taking hours and days to think about a topic, and that was just impossible in a small branch of the church: too many callings, too many hours at meetings). To me the church was good, but I needed to do better.
If I have any criticism of the list (and it is a very good list) it is its negativity. To leave the church we do not have to think the church is “bad”, merely that it “could do better.” This is why I call myself “too Mormon for the church”: I get my utopian idealism from my Mormon upbringing. I thought it was the core of Mormonism: building Zion!
Now granted, AFTER leaving (I mean mentally leaving – formal leaving was a technicality), I was pretty angry at the church for a couple of years. I would happily list its sins. I could be as savage as the next exmo who had lost his family due to a lying cult. But even at my most hating, I tried to angle my vitriol as “they can do better” not “they are evil.” Granted, the result is the same: if we use the church when we could do better then we are making a Bad and Harmful Choice. The point is, my initial reason for leaving was not that the church was bad: it just was not good ENOUGH. Now that I have got past my hating years I feel the same way again. I personally am not good at hating. I sometimes try it but I can never achieve anything by it. Maybe others can.
For me, if Mormonism would embrace its own highest ideals I would be back like a shot. I cannot see that happening – it would require the Q15 to be disbanded and openly repent, plus the abandonment of 90 percent of what has been taught since 1830, which is probably a little unlikely. But in principle I think nearly all philosophies have great potential, including Mormonism. And I think pretty much every Mormon is well meaning. And that the outside world has just as much craziness, but in different ways. And that self delusion is a universal trait, it’s just easier to see from outside. Whoops, didn’t mean this to become an essay!
tl;dr need a category “I wish them well, but I wanted to do better”
Thanks, Chris!
I wan to add two, but I’m not sure what category it falls under. “Feeling spiritually edified doing an activity that the church teaches drives away the Spirit and does not bring happiness.” Also, “Culture of judging.” The Church apostles explicitly teach against judging others, but members still do it.
For example, in college one day I joined a group of acquaintances who were drinking beer at a barbecue. They weren’t binge drinking, just relaxing and having a few beers with some good food. They invited me to join them and have a beer. In a matter of minutes, I felt more peace and happiness than I ever did through all my years of church activity, and it was with a few beer drinkers who I barely knew. They didn’t judge me for anything, just accepted me for who I was. They knew I was the Mormon who didn’t drink beer and was all snobby about it, but they treated me like a friend anyway.
I can totally relate to the dissonance of feeling spiritually edified when you’re not “supposed” to. I remember trying to make sense of “feeling the spirit” more while visiting a friend’s evangelical church than when attending my own ward. (At the time, I came to the conclusion that it was not the spirit in that instance, but rather deceptive emotion — lol.).
Later, before I left the church but after I stopped reading my scriptures/praying regularly, it seemed so strange to me that I continued to feel “the spirit” just as regularly as before – both at church and in other settings. It really helped me reevaluate what “the spirit” was and where it came from…
Thanks, simplysarah.
Thanks, Clay!
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but under Book of Mormon issues, I’d like to add: “Isaiah passages in the Book of Mormon match the King James Version word for word, rather than being a fresh translation.” It seems unlikely that a book dating from many hundreds B.C. would end up with EXACTLY the wording of a book published in the 1600s. Even if passages from Isaiah really were in the plates, this stretches credibility.
Thanks, Lis!
Liz
Half the verses from Isaiah in the Book of Mormon are different from those found in the King James Version.
That covers all my reasons…
It is a pretty comprehensive list, but it could be a bit more specific about temple stuff. I would venture to guess that for most people it is the endowment specifically that is the most uncomfortable part (where I am including the washing & anointing with the endowment, since they are usually done together when doing the ordinance for yourself). You have it in there already to some degree, but it could be a bit more specific while still not bringing out explicit details so as to walk the fine line of respecting those who still believe it is sacred as well.
Thanks, Sam!
That list is pretty comprehensive, however, I think the temple may need more bullets [and can be done without revealing too much detail]:
* issues with initiatory ceremony
* issues with historical temple text [pre-1990]
* issues with post 90’s temple text
* sexism within the temple
I agree that percentages of major reasons would probably add credibility to the study overall.
Best luck!
Thanks, butlin81!
Wow, very comprehensive. It’s incredible to look through this list, and note so many contributing factors that really capture my own, multifaceted, personal experience — including reasons that I do not often acknowledge in my public narrative (e.g., the hypocrisy experienced at home…)
Thanks, simplysarah!
John,
This is a great list…A few things to mention though:
Foundational Scriptures. There should probably be a separate outline number for BoM and BoA because issues with it are listed under translation problems as well as science issues, but I see the foundational scriptures of Mormonism as a huge issue to stand on its own. I think these need to stand out on their own.
Slight tweak only because it makes a huge difference in my opinion…
The BoM’s three biggest issues are not merely anachronisms. These are radically transformative resources for civilization and their absence is the single issue that marks the difference between civilization in the Americas vs Eurasia. They are more out of place geographically than out of time…For example…why didn’t the Incas develop sophisticated technology, build vast sailing vessels, sail to Europe, defeat the navies of Spain, ransack the thrones of Spain and England, pillage their gold and bring it back to the Americas? Because domesticable plants and animals were in EurAsia not the Americas….
1. Domesticable animals and plants in pre-Columbian Americas such as cows, sheep, goats, pigs, horses, wheat, barley, etc. 14 species of domesticable animals exist in the world and all the species Joseph mentions in the BoM existed exclusively in Europe until Columbus (Diamond 1999:159).
2. Eurasian Technologies and resources in the pre-Columbian Americas: steel swords, chariots, helmets, breastplates, coinage, silk, glass, etc. These technologies arise from a culture of productivity in civilizations that have domesticable animals and domesticable plants.
3. Animal-bread Diseases: Had Lehi and family brought over domesticable animals from Europe, they would also have brought the immunities to animal-bread diseases with them as well…BUT unfortunately, No domesticable animals in the Americas=no immunities to small pox. Upon exposure to Europeans, millions of native americans died. Some studies estimate deaths among native americans by small pox alone to total upwards of 10 Million.
Theological/Cultural Issues:
Institutional arrogance: “the only true” this or that or the idea that all other religions are “an abomination,” and finally the arrogant devaluation of people when they dare to question the church…the idea that people who discover issues are dangerous…when in reality it’s the issues–the church’s own issues–that are the danger.
Theological/Cultural Issue: completely closed off to the outside world. Won’t accept information from outside the church–especially on tough issues. Won’t open up the echo chamber and listen to data from outside…External information is “dangerous” and “anti-mormon” and “anti-faith” and yada yada yada. Why doesn’t the church publish a single peer-reviewed article defending the BoM narrative of ancient americas so that the community of anthropologists could comment? Closed off.
Not a listening culture. Preach first, listen never. Hey, if you have ALL truth and all other religions are nothing more than “an abomination” then why listen?
Great stuff. Thank you, Steve!
While many things listed above were reasons I left, for me the #1 reason was that mormon doctrine does not match up with Biblical Christianity. Specifically things like salvation by Grace, the nature of God, etc.
Thanks, Anita!
D’oh…forgot another two:
Culture of Vindictiveness:
The culture is vindictive. Maybe it all started when JS set fire to the press…to hide adultery…but today, if you speak out against the church or leave or do anything “contrary” in a public way, they come after you. It’s important for them to label you an apostate, heretic, sinner, adulterer, etc. because this form of devaluation says that the problem is YOU…the questioning, doubting, sinning, light-losing infidel.
Members will shun and ostracize and cut off communication with their own family members and friends simply for disagreeing and leaving. So strange.
I recently watched a TV show on a similar cultural phenomenon among Scientologists. They call it “disconnecting.”
Too Much Theology and the theology is too important:
Way too much doctrine and theology. Way too much. I could go on…but to militate around a theology at the expense of a relationship with a loved one or friend…I hate this. Also, too much theology because most of it’s unknowable….recently I saw someone explaining with great pride the plan of salvation…all the right circles were correctly placed on the chalk board…then, I wanted to ask: “Tell me about that circle right there…” and an empty gaze would have followed…Much of what we call “knowledge” is just a bunch of empty circles with labels on them.
Thanks again, Steve!
I’m guessing, for many, it’s one to a handful of things that give people a reason to step back and apply the same critical thinking skills to the church that they apply to everything else.
Imperfect members may chase intelligent people out but those people, once they get out, find many valid reasons to stay gone.
Thanks, Patrick!
It would be interesting to see an exhaustive list of reasons why heavy doubters remain active. Here is a short list, some of which apply to me:
Belief/hope that the good outweighs the bad.
“Even if it isn’t true, I lived a good and happy life because of it”
Potentially bad for business/career.
Don’t want to hurt loved ones
Enjoy the social aspects
Enjoy having ritualism and routine that help me focus on The Other and not The Self
Belief that all world views are flawed, so might as well operate within the world view that you are familiar with.
Mormonism is my heritage and I choose to stay out of duty.
To support a believing spouse.
To preserve a marriage with a believing spouse.
David – Great idea! See here:
http://whymormonsleave.com/what-factors-led-or-lead-you-to-stay-active-in-the-lds-church-even-when-you-dont-believe-in-or-enjoy-church/
Damaging church cultural practices and doctrinal teachings that are:
1. Not acknowledged and condemned by the leadership.
2. Actually not a good way to raise your kids, contrary to the popular belief that “the Mormon church is a good please to raise your kids, even if you don’t believe.”
They can cause lasting psychological damage to the people, especially children and adolescents, in the church.
One very well articulated explanation on rape culture can be found here: http://secretsofmom.com/?p=2801
See also Elizabeth Smart speaking out against the “licked cupcake” teaching, that a single woman is worthless without her virginity. This is taught to scare people into doing the right thing and has long lasting negative psychological repercussions for women who were raped or had sex outside of marriage/after divorce.
There are many additional teachings/activities that are damaging and occur at a local level of which former members do not want a part of and would like the leadership to rebuke/repudiate/apologize.
Thanks, John!
*not to mention the rape culture perpetuating the sexist view that a woman is to blame for a man’s actions, absolving the man from a significant part of responsibility in committing sex acts/rape and teaching women that they are responsible when someone abuses them.
Pretty good list…..I would have to say for me specifically Brigham Young needs to get mentioned and some of the things he said/did 🙂
Thanks, Josephine!
I started reading and I couldn’t continue. Too much resonant pain.
Is – being hit over the head with marriage/endowment rites that made me a distant servant to my husband and totally separated me from God.. on the list?
And, in that, add — being gaslighted by everyone who loves you and those you’ve trusted your whole life, as they all act like you are making it up, rather than as thought those items are *exactly* the meaning of the words of the temple rites.
and then, patriarchal abuse, female erasure, all the dynamics of powerlessness from the women (passive aggression, back-channeling, etc) and watching your daughter be groomed to dissolve herself upon marriage into a non-human servant who develops everyone and herself last. And your sons, groomed to do that to those they marry.
OK. Still can’t read it. Hope it’s in there. Thanks for trying to do this, John.
Thanks, Mungagungadin. 🙁
Laura, I lost my belief in the church not because I am anti-Mormon, but because the Church is anti-Laura. You see, I’m homosexually oriented and the Church is anti-gay. You can claim you love gays and still be anti-gay in your teachings and edicts. It’s near impossible to keep trusting in leaders who say things that you know, from personal experience, are dead wrong. I’m sure this fits under ‘how the church treats gays’ and feminists etc….. I just thought ‘anti-gay’ should be on the list. The rant I herd in Sacrament meeting could only be seen as anti-gay. It felt anti-me.
Thanks, Laura!
I’ve got another item to add to the list: Some people leave because a sense of apathy creeps in and eventually outweighs the commitment previously made to the Church. Rather than having an active issue with some item in the church’s history, or a doctrinal or cultural quibble, some people just stop caring about the Church, or about the role of the Church in their life. It becomes less important to them than other things in their life that had previously been less important than the Church.
Thanks, Tim!
I’m still active but the reason why I no longer believe and will likely leave is because I can’t believe that God would sabotage His own plan by A. not giving everyone a spiritual confirmation (I’ve now met 4 people who haven’t received one), B. allowing his mouthpiece to spew hateful things towards His children who happen to have darker skin and discourage them or others from wanting to be church members C. prevent those same children who He loves to receive necessary ordinances to achieve the highest degree of glory D. have his prophets pursue prop 8 which has made many members leave and many potential members be turned off by the church. Also, it appears this has actually helped gay marriage become instituted faster than had prop 8 not happened. Why would a loving Heavenly Father with only one path allow His prophets to sabotage it?
Thanks, timtam!
I also wish to have mentioned the young men who leave or go inactive due to being treated like lesser individuals because they chose not to or can’t serve missions or for those who feel pressured to leave and then return early. So many great young men have been shunned or labeled because of these reasons and I think it’s sad that not being able to serve is such a deal-breaker in the church for proving you are a good young man-and an awful lot of young women in the church refuse to date young men who aren’t returned missionaries, which also makes it much harder and less appealing to want to stay in the church. No one should have to feel they are broken or inferior just because they can’t or didn’t want to serve a full time mission. Too much pressure in that area. Also, i’m seeing a great deal of cultural pressure now that the age has been lowered for young women to go. It’s not even a commandment for the young women, but now if the young women don’t go, everyone seems to act like it’s a problem. I just wish that the youth didn’t have to feel they would be looked down on or met with disapproval just because their plans don’t include a mission.
Thanks, square peg!
John,
Great list. I still go to church every week, have a temple recommend and have a testimony (although it has evolved over the years). Even so, I agree wholeheartedly with some of the issues and somewhat with some of the others that you have listed. I still go to church because overall I get more out of it than it takes from me. In other words my list for staying would be bigger than my list for leaving. It would be interesting to see what that list would look like too and it would give some context to the other.
Cary – Done! http://whymormonsleave.com/what-factors-led-or-lead-you-to-stay-active-in-the-lds-church-even-when-you-dont-believe-in-or-enjoy-church/
I will add a few things, but a really great list so far:
1. Not fitting the Mormon family mold (Examples)- Being born outside of the covenant, but still being born in the church (Father a nevermo, Mom a TBM makes the child a “part-member”). An individual who gets married outside of the church. An individual feeling like they have to stay single if there are no options within the church.
2. Feeling like one has to believe all or nothing about the church. Members can’t interpret the Book of Mormon as a mystic text, they have to interpreted as literal. I think this can cause someone who even doubts the church by just 1% to then leave, because that’s what he/she has been taught.
3. I think this was mentioned, but I think it warrants more detail. The fact that men can get sealed to multiple women and women can only be sealed once. That many in the church still to this day think that in the CK it will be required that men have multiple wives. That women are seen more as things for men vs being a person.
Thanks, Jess!
Very helpful list! thanks John!
I identified with just about every point. I do have a few things to add. First, the way members judge the youth in the ward. My oldest son was singled out at school (7 and 8 grade, 10 and 11th) by a boy who was a year older and a leader in the ward and school; in fact, he was very involved in student government and church leadership. My son refused to tell where the tiny bruises covering his back and chest were coming from when he was in 7th and 8th grade. The abuse changed from physical to mental in high school. My son finally told me when he was a senior and the abusive boy had graduated and was on his mission. The boy had held leadership positions throughout his life. My son was the outsider, the troubled kid, the “loser.” Ward members clearly revered the other boy and constantly held him up as an example. My son was not the only boy in the ward to suffer under this bully’s reign of terror, and the signs that he was not everything he was cracked up to be were ignored by the ward Aaronic priesthood leaders. I am not accusing all the ward members of mistreating the less popular boys, but there was a lot of favoritism for the so called successful and popular kids leaving the unbeautiful to feel less valuable and less loved. Well… I’d take my tender, compassionate son any day.
Second, I don’t think you mentioned the church in the bedroom. When I got engaged in the 70s the wrongness of birth control was discussed from the pulpit in my BYU ward on a weekly basis. The bishop read letters from the first presidency or talked about it on his own. This was a singles ward. My bishop had 12 children, so he had lots to say and stood on firm ground. His wife would take a few minutes in RS every week to lecture us on multiplying and replenishing. She also gave us parenting tips, most of which were, in my opinion, draconian. I was pregnant three months after marriage. Crazy. Years later when I went to my bishop, overwhelmed with having had 6 children under 10, he told me I had no right to resentful. The church did MAKE me have all those kids. It was my choice.
Third, the bedroom continued. I think it was in the 80s that the church said certain sexual practices like oral sex were inappropriate. That definitely messed with my head. Makes me mad just to think about it.
Thanks, shameon!
Correction: My bishop said the church DIDN’T make me have all those kids. (Freudian slip?)
Opposition to the Equal Rights Amendment. That did it for me.
Thanks, LeeAnn!
Excellent list, John. Sometimes I think what we’re really dealing with here is nothing but a huge real estate empire led by clueless, elderly men who are utterly obsessed with oppressing women, youth, people of color, and LGBT persons. These men are fanatics about delving into and controlling people’s private, personal sexual behavior and shaming pretty much everyone they attempt to control. The church is the ultimate pyramid scheme that promises vast payoffs after death, but DEMANDS enormous sacrifices of time and money in this life so they can grow their empire of domination and dehumanization. What an utter travesty of human justice this organization is!
Thanks, David!
John, great list. I identify with many of them. This should be required reading for every active Mormon. Of course many of them will still say, “they were offended or wanted to sin.”
John, two less thought of reasons for leaving the church:
A. Ward or stake boundary changes. Your children lose all their Primary/SS/YM/YW friends in a single Sunday.
B. The parents of four tiny kids are called repeatedly to report to the ward building early on Saturday mornings to clean the toilets/classrooms/public areas. Rather than once a year, the call comes monthly, or even more often on a “urgent need” basis.
This is a great list, John. I appreciate the work and thought you’ve put into it. I also appreciate the contributions of others who have helped flesh out the list.
My one suggestion would be to use an ordered list versus a bulleted list, with the primary reason being ease of reference.
How about god broke his covenant and so I became Agnostic? Comforter is promised to us as a CONSTANT companion and some of us didn’t have it in the darkest moments we should have had it stronger than ever. Anyway, might have been in there but that’s what broke my shelf and led to my discovery of the other things and finally allow me to start reasoning again.
Making the priesthood male only, telling men and women the man presides, saying priesthood is the power to act in the name of God, the obedience covenant in the temple, the woman depending on the man to get into the Celestial Kingdom, the woman being subservient to the man even in the Celestial Kingdom all contribute to culture that enables abuse. It needs to be put that bluntly.
Abusers protected by bishops. Bishops discourage the reporting of abuser’s criminal behavior to police.
Youth protection training for boys and young men, but no similar training for young women and girls.
Heavenly Mother is missing, as usual (meant with a touch of humor).
The responsibility of having the priesthood and using it to give blessings when you don’t believe there is any special power or if in a leadership role knowing callings are not from inspiration but because someone would be good or willing to do the calling
I agree completely. It’s very male dominated and sexist. And if a woman says anything about. Her faith and eternal salvation are questioned for wanting equality.
First John a huge thanks to you. Your efforts over the years have helped thousands. And it is a wonderful resource to the church itself whether it is fully recognized or not.
For me, all the issues you listed were easily explained or were not problematic for me when I viewed the world through faith and emotions. As soon as I added logic, facts and reason, this list felt entirely different. Most active members view and approach things related to the church very differently than they do other aspects of their lives. I could no longer approach the church differently than I did my profession, investments, etc. and soon the church began to feel entirely illogical and in many cases simply silly.
Not sure you listed JS’s teaching that all New Testament events up to and including the flood occurred right here in Missouri, USA. Hard to find a more illogical teaching than that. While a TBM, I loved the doctrine of a Heavenly Mother. That rang so true to me and yet we were too embarrassed to ever speak about it. We tout so many illogical and embarrassing teachings but hide the one that, for me at least, made the most sense and provided the most comfort.
At the end of the day, really at the end of years of study, prayer and struggle, the church literally screamed “man made”. And this is only reinforced as the church itself will throw any leader or former prophet under the bus of “personal opinion” if something they said no longer fits the current narrative. My shelf finally collapsed when I realized it is literally impossible to distinguish revelation from opinion/tradition/culture/administrative decisions/PR, etc. And the recent essays on LDS.org only magnify that.
Thanks again John!
Sorry I meant to say JS taught that Old Testament events occurred in Missouri. He even identified Adam’s alter. Of course today that is understood to have just been his personal opinion.
Mark Hoffman scandal with the prophet falling for his forgeries
Here is what I find a little disturbing – a very strong parallel between the mindset and thinking of FLDS (i.e. Colorado City, Yearning for Zion) folks and the mindset and thinking of current Mormons.
Elevating the Word of Wisdom to a “saving ordinance” when there is zero doctrinal support.
The manuals all reference D&C 89 (while expecting us to have poor reading comprehension?) when the policy, apparently, dates back to flawed memories of Brigham Young Jr. and the ensuing group-think.
Even if Brigham Young had required a covenant of the membership in 1851, when in our doctrine does one generation’s covenant apply to all ensuing generations? Wouldn’t the stripling warriors have been unable to shed blood, in that case?
This is an excellent list. The one thing that seems off about it is that you seem to minimize the impact sexual sin, word of wisdom difficulties (i.e. alcohol, drugs), or the influence of family and/or friends have on a person’s belief in the Church. From my experience with many friends across different age groups and geographies, those issues seem to be at the top of the list.
It is true that more are leaving the Church because of some issues with its doctrines, history, or leaders. Yet, of those who have left, there are substantial number who began having problems with the Church’s doctrines, history, or leaders after dealing directly or indirectly with transgression of some kind.
For example, there are those who began doubting the Church after their son or daughter struggled with homosexuality. I know of a family whose father was excommunicated. All of the children who grew up when he was active in the Church remained active in the Church. The remaining children who were very young when their father left the Church grew up disaffected with it. I have others who began having moral issues with a boyfriend or girlfriend and felt it easier to stop going to Church than to repent.
Your list is interesting and helpful. Its points are legitimate and need to be addressed. Within it are many things that may appear or may actually be contradictory to what we believe about God and Christ. If we rely only upon our logic and reasoning or that of others all of us will fail in the point that God made in creating us: we are required to live by faith.
I, for one, was active, obedient and commandment keeping before everything came crashing down. If you want to make transgression a part of this, fine. I had problems with my father killing my mother and doing it in such a fashion he wasn’t caught. He was buried in his temple clothes. I had a problem with my husband being abusive and when I reported this transgression, the bishop extended a leadership calling to him. I had a problem with my bishop counseling me to not report my husband to the police. In doing this, the bishop committed a crime. Was transgression a part of my disaffection? Definitely! The question is whose?
I am willing to consider the whole “they may wanted to sin” scenario, but what I’ve observed is people who leave the church did so long after the loss of their testimony. I also think the wanting to sin excuse is putting the car before the horse.
If you were to see me, today, you might see me not wearing garments and drinking tea. I don’t do this because I want to sin. I do this, because my faith crisis had me examining everything I’d been taught. It was several months before I learned that rapists target their victims by who seems to have a sense of bodily shame and who will be easily intimidated into silence. This type of person will usually cover their body to an unusual degree. Now, I choose clothes by what is flattering, not by what I’m told is modest. I drink tea, because the overwhelming proof says it is healthy, much healthier than soda. You would look at my choices and write them off as a desire to sin. You would not see the two years of anguish as my shelf fell. You would not see the, now four years of ongoing work I go through to determine for myself, through my understanding of God, modern findings in science and human behavior and my own conscience what is right. You would see none of that, because I have been struggling with this for a very long time before I ever let anyone see behavior that others would classify as sin.
I have come across the rare individual who said, “Come on, didn’t you want to sin?” The overwhelming response was no they were happy. They wanted it all to be true. They were anxiously engaged in the cause. Mr. Dehlin did list that reason, but I think he weights it accurately. It’d be interesting to see actual numbers, but I’d put the actual percentage in the single digits.
I’ve just read through the entire list John and consider this to be a significant piece of work that speaks to my condition and experience in so many of the categories you listed. I hope those in high church authority become aware of it and help move the Church in a direction that makes it a far safer place for all members right across the spectrum. I’ve no idea how they could do that as its a huge ship to steer and would take decades to change direction, but then again I guess it can be done, look at the CoC model. Thank you for all you do in this arena John, keep on doing what you’re doing.
I left when I realized the Mormon god did not exist, that the Mormon definition of the word God was ludicrous and infantile. This was in 1961, years before the Internet atwhich point I learned about all the other problems.
I would suggest leaving because of the children. I don’t want my daughters brought up in such a patriarchal religion. I don’t ever want them to feel like their personal needs and wants don’t matter as much as their husband’s or children’s needs and wants. I don’t want them to feel like they have to fit into a specific mold to be considered a good Mormon. I want them to make choices for themselves and not feel guilty about it.
While I was a member I witnessed several instances where the male members were given recognition through callings and attention from ward members while many women were overlooked or marginalized. I served with women who struggled with their self worth as well as struggling with my own.
I thought I might have been overly sensitive about this until I began hearing stories going around Provo, UT about BYU professors being “excommunicated” from the church for praying to heavenly mother.
The excommunications did not make any sense to me at all since motherhood is touted as being the “highest calling” a woman can have within that church and it recognizes Mother’s Day. WTF???
Yes. I left and never looked back.
I am personally still on the fence about leaving or staying. I was raised in the church and believe that many principles espoused by the church are good and wholesome, However my reasons for questioning are the following:
1. The Savior taught a doctrine of forgiveness, love, kindness, compassion, and charity, but many local leaders seem to be more concerned about promoting their own standing in the church than about helping those around them. Local leaders attempt to force their own “pet peeves” or beliefs on the members and claim that it is inspiration or doctrine. Church members are regularly punished for doing the right thing, and then abandoned by the church. In my observations the church does not seem to sincerely care about individual people. The leadership seems to care more about how many people they have in church every week instead of actually knowing the people that are there.
2. The leadership of the church does not practice what they preach. Ex. 1: My father works for the church in maintenance, he is retired army, has a bachelors in Business Administration, and +20 years of experience in construction. At home it is just him and my mother now. Speaking candidly with him last year he told me quote ” If it wasn’t for my military retirement pension your mother would have to also work full-time just for us to pay the bills”.The doctrine of the church is that “the husband is to provide for and protect the family and the wife is primarily responsible for nurturing”. The church also places great emphasis on getting out of debt but does not pay its overqualified employees even enough to simply pay the bills.
3. The doctrine of the church supposedly encourages the use of agency and independent thinking, yet the entire structure of the church is totalitarian. The rank and file members of the church have no say in management or policy decisions. The church leadership does not want the members to think objectively about policies and practices. The leadership of the church decides what its members should believe and then the members are expected to follow blindly without asking questions or attempting to determine the reasons. Members are subjected to inordinate amounts of pressure to conform and fit into the “cookie-cutter” mold of a member of the church instead of being encouraged to discover the personality and individual character that God gave to each one of us. The Universities that are funded and owned by the church are the best example of this. As an alumni of one of these universities I can say that they do not encourage thinking and exploring because that is dangerous to the churches system. Higher education is not as important to them as indoctrination and convincing students that the church is always right with no exceptions.
That being said, I do still hold onto many principles of the Gospel. The Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the scriptures (OT, NT, BoM, & D&C) is truly a beautiful and inspiring thing. The best thing that I have gained from being a member of the church is a deep appreciation for my Christ and His Atonement regardless of religious beliefs I feel that this is something that all honest and sincere Christians can agree on. I sincerely hope that someday all questions and concerns will be resolved by a higher and truly perfect authority, our Savior Jesus Christ.
Thank you for your comments. The Atonement is what will ultimately take care of the honest in heart. Period
So is the plan to assemble all reasons why people claim to have left, then go to those who have left and ask them “which one(s) apply to your case?”
Are you being advised by trained ethnographers or those with experience in scientific polls?
I believe I participated in the survey last year that contributed to this list, yet I do not see any indication in your methodology of how one might be able to document how items on this list have been overcome (as I mentioned in my response).
I left because I knew after reading many books, reflecting upon the doctrines and deep soul searching that the LDS Church was not my spiritual home. I was born and raised Catholic until I was 10.
After my parents took the missionary discussions and joined my relationship with this church was as a result of their decision rather than a deeply held conviction or anything else like it.
Since leaving 10 years ago I have found a spiritual path and have no regrets about this choice.
I don’t understand why the church allows those in our country illegally to get baptized and hold callings.They are basically criminals because they broke into our country.
As an inactive lds church member most all of these reasons are rubbish..if you really understand the doctrine. I am taking a break from all churches right now to renew my thoughts about religion and make sure the lds church is where I want to be. Most of my most spiritual experiences have been in the lds church as a convert.
Perhaps some of the doctrine, as it is clearly understood, is rubbish. Do you think that one’s religious convictions and experiences are just as sacred, valid, and important to them as yours are to you?
If you think that Joseph Smith was anything other that lying, sex-addicted con man, perhaps you should think again. Come on folks! If Josephs Smith were alive today, how long do you think it would take to catch him “sealing” some woman or getting caught is one of his lies. He used religion to garner power over unsuspecting frontier folk.
Even though the formal list has already been compiled, I have thought a lot about the following concerns the last few years. I think they have not been covered in too much depth already:
Historical revisionism(negationism): I came across this terminology on Wikipedia. It describes purposeful distortion of historical records or withholding/concealing information, esp. in order to cast some past event in a more or a less favorable light (depending on the purposes of the characterization). An example I recently learned of would include Sandra Tanner’s experience with LeGrand Richards. I have direct experience of this concept when reading copies of the King Follett Discourse in which the portion about child gods has been removed. There are a lot of examples, and the practice seems really dangerous.
Determinism/Foreordination/Predestination/Prophecy: I have struggled with the mormon conception of prophecy for awhile now (I realize many Christians conceive of prophecy in the same way). However, if people are agents with a will that is uniquely theirs, how can anyone-even God-know with certainty what conclusions they will reach on any given topic or what actions they will take as a result? If history is seen as the sum total of the actions of all of these agents having exercised their agency autonomously, how is it possible to definitively predict in advance that any given person will do anything? I think this is doubly so when it comes to predicting the actions of people hundreds of years in advance of the prediction, and even more so when you want to predict the actions of a specific agent apart from a group. If God’s knowledge of creation is this intimate, can existence really be described as a test? What would be the purpose of a test in which the outcome is already certain? Likewise, how could God know definitively, for instance, that Christopher Columbus-and specifically Christopher Columbus (though I know the Book of Mormon makes no specific mention of his name)-would be born and would later discover America? I don’t necessarily have a problem believing that God could know his children/creations intimately, but I don’t believe that he could see definitively “their end from their beginning” without invalidating the idea of agency. The fact that there are “sinners” suggests that there are those predestined for sin, and what would be the use of a repentance process for such a person?
Often, I wonder if this conception of prophecy is a relic of the early American Calvinist, protestant past. Also, I sometimes think it’s utilization is a good intention gone awry. It seems like the purpose of the foreordination concept is to instill in the believer a sense of purpose, confidence, and a dedication to specific ideals. I think it backfires if you believe that you have done something that has put you beyond concepts like the atonement or grace, the safety net principles that are meant to apply to all people in a general sense, specifically when inevitable shortcomings do occur.
People have there own reasons why they stop believing in something. I think one reason is that there too many secrets. Secrets are a deal breaker in relationships why not religion? Especially when they are just supposed to believe in another sinner who speaks for god Religion in my opinion is like the game telephone once you get to the last person it’s nothing like it was originally. There is a god/ess and a plan, and people fighting and arguing over what is wrong is obviously not the right way of doing it. Every devout person of any religion is the right thing for them. The one common ground every religion has is: treat others they way you want to be treated, Love everyone, be a good person and the rest will fall into place. My church is nature love and care for her she is the one we need to devote our lives to right now.
There are lots of reasons people leave the church and I have written my own observations here and how to handle some of them: http://kellywsmith.com/i-got-offended-so-thats-why-i-left-the-church.html
I see many comments above of people who would do well to follow my suggestions, but they won’t solve all the issues people bring up as that would be impossible. We all face struggles with many things in life, including our faith and to those who are struggling I am hoping they will follow the advice of Elder Uchdorf and “doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith”. I mean think about it: one of Satan’s greatest tools is to destroy the faith of every follower of God. If you fall into that category please recognize that your adversary is after you and if the pressure is great, the rewards will be too if you hold on and make it through.
I know whereof I speak as I have very close family members who are struggling too. Hey, its the last days and Satan only has so much time left before he is cast out! He wants to take as many with him as he can. Hold on. Keep the faith and follow the prophet by staying close to the Church. Its called a “strait and narrow path” for a reason. It was never meant to be easy.
In short, the church and its leaders do not practice what they preach.
(All good points referenced above).
LDS talks about how much they ‘pride’ themselves of despising sin. Yet…Most LDS’ I know, use passive aggressive manipulation tactics to bait and switch non mormons into employment. They lure the hard working and honest in with lies of big pay out sales jobs. Then promise them leadership for recruiting. When time comes for their promotion and pay out, they fire the guy and replace him with one of their own. They also do everything within their power to hold the employees pay. Also, judging anyone, for anything, is a SIN. You can spin my words how you please but you will just be further proving my point in showing the manipulation at play. “He without sin, Cast the first stone.” No…that wasn’t all mighty Joseph Smith., it was Jesus Chris. The fact of the matter is, the LDS Is just a huge way to embezzle money and gaining income through deceit and tyranny. Let’s here the response of “oh, you are prejudice, or “oh, you are just not capable of believing because your close minded.” That’s the last thing that the hypocrite view of mormons is so blatant, it’s almost unreal. You preach open mindedness due to your “religion” yet you force obedience? Make up your minds.
I think the #1 reason people leave the church is because they never received a spiritual manifestation of the truthfulness of the restored gospel. Whether born in the church, or converted to the church, everyone must receive this manifestation. With it, in spite of life’s difficulties, it will serve as your most powerful crutch to lean on. Without it, you are more easily led astray or forced to rely on the merits of your own thoughts, rather than those of your Creator. The reason why it is so powerful is because it comes directly from God, a conduit from heaven. It is the purest form that truth and knowledge can be passed to another individual. Doesn’t mean people that receive this manifestation still won’t fall away, but you are 100 times more likely to stay having received it.
Ryan, that is a very thoughtful comment. It may take a lifetime for some of us to be effective receptors of spiritual truth. We are impatient creatures. We want it all right now with only some effort. Making the effort and keeping on keeping on are worth it. In the midst of others in our wards who are less mature(not just spiritually) we keep on. But that IS very difficult not having received that spiritual manifestation of TRUTH. When you lose your most adored loved one- what will you have, if no understanding that there is truth? God knows our weaknesses, including mental illness,physical and social disabilities. These can skew our understanding and self-esteem. Any of us with these difficulties need to “doubt our doubts ” and hang on and watch. God is merciful to weaknesses.
Though I have not read every single comment, it would appear (unless I missed it) that it sounds as if many of you finally grew up and grew out of your childish yearnings for fairy tales and mystical beliefs. Please do not misunderstand me and I hope that none are offended by my above comment; however, for me I felt it was more akin to becoming more mature and knowledgeable that I finally realized the it wasn’t any different than trying to believe in Santa Claus or some other being that required a child-like suspension of disbelief to entertain any of those mystical religious stories as actually being founded in any real truth. Sure, some might leave for myriads of reasons, but I would care to venture than when most conduct a self-analysis, they will realize that as they have matured and the zealot mentality is replaced by logic, reason and a pure balance in reality; then it is realized that childish things are put away as adulthood sets in.
I believe after a 20 year apologetics effort with anti-mormons, they most definitely fit my #1 Sin/immorality/porn addiction etc or #2: they don’t like someone, a leader etc and are easily offended. They leave the church, after professing for years to believe, sin THEN discover church history in a tainted one-dimensional anti-mormon rant, they leave. Very few leave “just because the church lied to them”(which is not true!!If they bothered to read Joseph F Smith my husband’s cousin, they would see his honesty and amazing testimony. Why would JS go through what he went through for a lie? He didn’t have a penny to his name when he was murdered by an angry, former member, anti mormon devil possessed crowd. If you leave the Church it is only by the bidding of the Devil, Satan . If anti mormons were honest (and most are not) and took a moral inventory when they started to doubt or go inactive, I’m positive their would be some sins that would have needed confessing : either WOW or morality. This is NOT a myth, look at the topics/threads on RFM , post mormon etc!! even John Dehlin said, that has been his experience as well (peeople leaving and goimg off deep end sin-wise, )
@Kittychemist — Many Mormons, from my experience and observation, are stuck in a mystical euphoria mind-set that places blinders on their human-abled truth detection; therefore, they believe that god / Jesus restored the LDS church and that the prophet and apostles commune with the gods. Yet, if you take a couple of steps back and apply a honest and thorough examination of all the facts and un-suspend your disbelief, you will see that Mormonism (as with all other world religions) is man-made and no different than any other ancient mystical belief systems and or (what many now would call today) forms of mythology. JS and his ilk committed a well thought out and orchestrated plan that continues to “pull the wool” over the eyes of those who are less educated and or unable to truly think on their own. Additionally, many recent LDS leaders have claimed that Mormonism simply builds upon the truth that all Judeo-Christian religions had had at one time. So, if one does the thorough research on this history, they will find that this entire belief system was stolen from other much older mythologies that pre-dates biblical writings. The story of Christ was a fabrication built upon numerous middle-Eastern and far-Eastern religions. Of course many will say: “We have the BofM to validate the bible record.” Unfortunately, this book too now does not stand up against archeological and anthropological facts; which all takes us back to what is a matter of historical fact: Joseph Smith was a fraud. Therefore, belief in any Judeo-Christian religion is solid proof that a sucker is born every minute! My suggestion to any and all that read this is to please do your homework before you begin any ad hominem attacks on me. And, if you do your research properly, you will discover that (as I said above) all religions are man-made for the purpose of control, manipulation and profiteering by the few to subjugate the many. (Yes, I am an ex-believer and NO, I did not leave because of sin or insult — I simply did the research and found the truth.)
Kitty- I have always asked myself that same question: why would Joseph Smith and others go through all that if it were not true? Also some people read the anti-mormon -angry c— some are mentally and socially fragile. These comments about peripheral issues which are magnified or simply repeated are very influential to these dear souls. Look for the CONCEPT people! Not at niggling undetails. But you already know that. It is so interesting to me that people spend so much time tearing something down instead of truly building up others.
People. John D, I believe it was in your podcast “why I stay” that you made the comment about the former mormons (most, not all) giving over to reprobate (my word) behavior. It is when you were talking specifically about immoral sins. I truly do not judge anyone until they attack either my Jewishness or my Mormon-ness. The Patriarchs of all the scriptures, including JS were human beings, Moses was truly one flawed dude, but does that negate the 10 commandments being true or his message being divine?
I joined the Mormon church 6 months ago. Was baptized and all the fixings. I began to really dig the folks at our ward. They were all nice, open to me and were friendly. Things have so changed. I am in the church and feel good about that, but now I feel I’m being shunned by them. Many women that once spoke to me no longer look my way in church. One woman and her husband have started shunning me, and the other day i go in and the person that gives them a ride said they were not in church. Then later I saw them. The wife saw me and ran up to me and said, “Oh, are you hiding?” I explained I was not, and walked with her to Sunday school. Get in there, and she seemed the only one that was going to sit with me. She whispered in my ear as we began to listen, “Murmuring? murmuring!?” I whispered back “Shunning me, don’t talk about me, no shunning, no murmuring”. But she was kidding, I was not. And she is not a well woman but no one told me. So now I find myself sitting isolated from them, sitting alone in one long pew. Why are they doing it when I pay my tidings, more than I’m supposed to, come to church, read the Book of Mormon and show them I care and respect them and god. What’s the problem. Why won’t they talk to me or want to be my friend? What did I do wrong. I am 50 years old, female, married (non Mormon man), live well, am not crazy, but a bit over the top at times in a good way. I am over joyous. Do you suppose they think I want to be there because they can do something for me? I want to have a better relationship with God, so I find myself being shunned, I can feel it. Am I wrong? Help?
I left because the church is sexist and racist. Excuse me if “being a wife and mother” is not on the top of my priorities list above college and doing something to make the world a better place. And sorry, but 20 kids are not popping out of this reproductive system. I have way too much self respect for that. Men do not control me. They are my equal. My husband understands and respects that.
I am a convert of 35 years, married with grown children. I have served in many leadership positions throughout the years including Ward Relief Society President. I was disowned and thrown out of my home by my Italian Catholic family just prior to my marriage in the temple because my family was so upset that they would not be able to see the marriage ceremony. At my baptism, some of the members of ward kept watch at the doors of the chapel because my father threatened to show up and make a scene and stop my baptism from occurring. In fact, I was a member just a few months when he did show up at a Sacrament meeting and interrupted the meeting looking for me. The bishopric had to usher him out; needless to say, I was mortified but the members of the ward were very kind and supportive. The point of telling you all of this is that in spite of all these difficulties and the sacrifices that I had to make in order to join the church, I made them nevertheless because I believed it was God’s true church and he wanted me in it. I was faithful and very active over the years while maintaining a professional career and raising my children. I gradually became aware of certain doctrinal/historical issues that were extremely troubling but as most faithful Mormons, my life was so busy I never really took the time to study and ponder them. That, coupled with my politics and my working full-time with young children always seemed to set me apart from the typical member but people accepted me for who I was and my ward family was like my own family.
Sitting in Sunday School at the beginning of this year when we started studying the Old Testament, the teacher turned to the Book of Abraham. Aware of the problems with the Book of Abraham the thought suddenly struck me, “doesn’t anyone else here see the ridiculousness in studying this book?” At that point I had an epiphany and realized that my personal integrity would not allow me to continue to pretend that everything was okay. I could no longer continue to live with the cognitive dissonance that had been building inside me over the years. I have not attended church in six months. I have devoured books, online sources and your podcasts in that time and I am now, more than ever, convinced that the church is not and never was what it purports to be. At first I was angry but my anger gradually gave way to a profound sadness. I have, thankfully moved beyond that stage. Joining this church was not easy for me. I sacrificed a great deal to join with the Mormons. I would not go back and undo all those years of faithful activity because they brought me much joy and happiness and for my family but now I definitely see a different path to my life, one that allows me live with integrity.
Susan, that’s right! The book of Abraham has been totally debunked, and it’s the reason I now KNOW that Jospeh Smith was no prophet whatsoever. It’s completely about an egyption burial of a spititual leader named “Heron” and the papyrus Joseph Smith used has been located and studied by scholars world wide, there is NOTHING even mentioning anything about Abraham – and it was written 2,000 years after Abraham’s death by Egyptions honoring Heron at his time of actual death. The detailed notes in Joseph Smith’s diary of translating the papyrus further show how ludicris and innacurate he was in this so called translation. It is completely laid to waste in this very historical and accurate documentary here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE
People need to watch and educate themselves. If Joseph Smith were a real prophet, this falsehood would have never been translated and published. I expect the Church to alter and/or remove this from the Book of Mormon at some point, because they know the truth shall set you free! it’s the biggest reason Mormons are leaving the church faster than the missionaries can convert them – and will continue to do so.
SFL KK, thanks for sharing the link. I learned a few things and am more convinced than ever that the B of A was completely made up byJoseph Smith. He neither translated it nor was it inspiration from God. The church can back peddle all it wants on this issue and now say that it wasn’t a literal translation but Joseph’s own words say otherwise. It’s amazing how much cognitive dissonance people are willing to live with (including me, until I finally just couldn’t do It any longer).
NO NO NO Susan, YOU ARE TOTALLLLLLLY wrong about Book of Abraham. What Joseph Smith did NOT have is the knowledge (3rd grade education) of what it was, and just went full on into it, using God’s subconscious way to tell him what it will mean to his Mormon converts and him. When I read it, I saw even more that Joseph sort of missed, due to his not knowing what the symbols meant. I do know what the Book of the Dead is, and I can see God using it for Joseph to use his mind and open it via God, to come up with The Book Of Abraham. It is not useless and makes you really read very deeply. In college I studied The Egyptian Book of the Dead and my dorm, room was filled to the brim with Book of the Dead characters, Horus, Amun Ra, Osiris and more. Joseph Smith did a great job, considering he did not know the symbols, so the book came to me and I have been reading it, and have MY OWN translation of what it meant, but Joseph’s translations is very good as well, but since I know more than he did, and I am a Mormon (shunning or no shunning), I can fully get into reading The Book of Abraham. Yes, it’s The Book of The Dead. But it’s more than that. Why would God allow it to come right to Joseph. How many wagons came with that kind of prize in it. Joseph bought a few mummies and 18 of the scrolls, all real, all Egyptian. That book is so cool. And you will, if you are open, see that reading it, you can make your own translations that Joseph either missed or didn’t know. And for good reason too! God was protecting him and only allowing part of his mind to see what God was trying to do and what he wanted Joseph to do, and Joseph completed it almost. But in those days, it was harder, so what I’ve done is finish the translation or extend it, and I can see NO REASON why the congregation is shunning me, when I’ve done nothing wrong but didn’t know I had to wear a dress, or that some member was acting crazy out of social retardation, and no one told me anything about a few sick Mormons in that ward, but as soon as I got a hold of Book of Abraham, I was righted in my own mind and am staying, shunning or no shunning, so what! I am there for God, and if the congregation keeps shunning I just keep telling some WHY are they doing it? That may be the reason. But I have to say in closing, BOOK OF ABRAHAM IS THE BEST!
OK, I’ve been in the the Mormon Church going on 8 months now. And they are still shunning me MORE than EVER and then covering it up. I can see it, I can feel it, I can SMELL it. They don’t like me! It’s not that I want to leave, on the contrary, I want them to just like me and see my joy over my new relationship with God. It all started soon after I was baptized. The couple that was helping me started shunning me then others. Each Sunday I noticed less people sitting with me, and I found myself sort of looking around for someone to sit with, so now I’m sort of stuck with really old people and there I am sitting between them. I guess I am just an odd duck. I read Book of Abraham and believe in Book Of Mormon and what Joseph Smith was trying to say, but I’ve had my own visions and translations about him (all good), and I am able to translate the book of Abraham the way it really should be done. It’s right, but there is so much more I found that Joseph did not mention, and I studied THE BOOK OF THE DEAD Egyptian book, which is what it was. So I don’t know what’s the problem, maybe it was when I told some others that others were shunning me and that some were coming up and screaming that I can’t wear pants or some minor infraction I didn’t know about. After I told on a few, I noticed they were all shunning me. So I’ll just stick it out and worship my God, and Jesus, and continue reading BOM! Otherwise I love being Mormon, it’s the congregation that hates me, not god.
@Globalgodira — What if it was all a scam, concocted by one of the worlds best con men, what would you do then? All things Mormon have been debunked and I find it amazing supposedly educated people can suspend their disbelief to the point that they believe in this tripe.
Actually Will, I do not think it is a scam at all. God is no scam. Jesus Christ is no scam, and Joseph Smith was not a scammer. I believe in Book of Mormon very much so, as well as Book of Abraham, it’s so interesting, and I just don’t like how the congregation at my ward won’t embrace me right away, but I do feel a different me rising up. I’m calmer, closer to god, and am very much more happier. I love being a Mormon, and want to be so much better. Whatever happens at the ward is usually caused by a “CHURCH PARROT”, one person or two. I noticed after I wrote my post above, that I prayed on it, and suddenly I got more answers as to why it’s being done. It’s a CHURCH PARROT, some socially stupid person who comes up to me and says things that the person has heard from one or two that like that sort of church parroting thing. And they are in any church, any school, any spa, any condo complex! It’s just normal they would be afraid of me, because I am quite serous about my God and Religion. I’ve tried them all, no success as I’ve had with the Mormon Church, shunning or no shunning. I know it’s only about 4 people, and the rest really do like me. I found out last night just what the situation is now. Thank God for the missionaries, or I’d be a wreck. Thanks though for you opinion and post and god bless, I’ve learned so much from this site. I will endure any shunning, if it is shunning that is happening. God works his magic in weird ways. Go with God.
@Globalgoldira — My purpose in asking the question that I did is that I too use to believe in these mystical stories and relish in these elaborate tales of mysticism; but, I use to believe in Saint Nicholas too. Of course, as I grew in maturity and knowledge I was able to put away these childish thoughts. This too allowed me to un-suspend my disbelief and begin to see things for what they truly were. As I started to expand my horizons and discuss these things with others I was quite shocked at how many people are able to live their lives in a total suspension of disbelief and therefore become easy targets for scams and fraud. It was at this point that I understood what Carl Sagan meant when he said: “You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe.” And it was then that I realized most people do not want to see the evidence that is so clearly before them because they have such a strong need to fill some type of void that they tenaciously grasp at these belief systems, even though they (these belief systems) have all been created by men to control and manipulate the populous. The first question to answer is: Was there actually a Jesus Christ and is there even a shred of historical evidence of his existence? The answer is no, there was not a historical Jesus, any more than there was a Krishna, Odysseus, Dionysus, Heracles, Glycon, Attis of Phrygia or a Horus; all of whom the stories of Jesus were plagiarized from. So, if there was no Jesus…then the Joseph Smith creations and additional stories are only the continuation of the mystical stories of yore and, more importantly, makes him and the LDS church a scam based upon a fraud. If you want to know more, please let me know. However, if you would like to live your life in a bubble, then please ignore all that I have said and be happy in the ignorance and bliss of total suspension of all disbelief.
Wow, Will, that’s a mouth full. You must have been hurt by these folks, the Mormons. I have not been hurt by then, just not embraced as much as I first thought. But when I was in college in the early 1980’s, I did a whole thesis on Book of the Dead, Egyptian full version, and in that time I was also babysitting for this Mormon family, but only 18 at the time, so I didn’t see it then. But I fell in love with the art of the Egyptians I saw in the Book of the Dead, so got an art student to re create and paint the images from Book of the Dead which stayed on my wall in my college dorm for almost 3 years. So I am familiar with the scrolls that Joseph Smith translated. The translation is abstract, you have to think of it as what it is in just your own mind, and what was in Joseph’s at that time. He had to veil it to make it not seem real, so when he translated it, God came to him subconsciously and put those translations in his head. When I read it, Will, I saw a whole different translation than even Joseph Smith did, and I shared this with the missionaries and the pat ones in Utah, and I think people get a bit freaked out, just like if I was with any other church. I was first going to a Lutheran Church near by my home, and after I was baptized there, I realized there were BIG problems, all the congregation were gay men couples and the pastor was a female with Bipolar Disorder and she had an assistant who was gay and recovering, and all the women were sort of “broken” and I had a bad falling out with them and swore not to do it again. So I left. On bad terms, i wrote their bishops and such, and it was such a mess. That was like 3 years ago. Now I hear and read what you are saying and respect your opinion but I can’t see The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as a scam. Today I got a call from an old missionary whose partner got married, the girl that was involved with her mission. I was so happy she called me, it made me feel so good. They make me feel very good, and if it’s a scam, then well, I feel pretty darn good, even with the slight shunning. After I posted my post, I got a chance to meet with the missionaries and told them all I told you, but not as much, maybe a bit more than I’m saying here, but all the same, I had to read your post several times, it was hard to figure it, but it’s obvious like me with the Lutherans, you had a bad experience with the Mormons, right? I don’t believe they plagiarized from Egypt, maybe borrowed a bit, and every religion does that. I tried them all, and never had as much success in finding My Lord Jesus and for the first time, God himself more closer to me. It’s amazing. Yes, I am being shunned, but not as much as I first thought, and yes, Mormons have that stigma of a scam or cult, but I assure this ward I’m in is the hardest one to stay in, because of the location and congregation members, some who are very famous in the Biz. So they don’t really know me yet. But they will. They will embrace me, and some are. But most are not. I accept it. It’s not about them, it’s about me. I am married to an older Jewish man who has “0” interest in the church, I’m older, mid fifties, I’m Jewish, I’ve been baptized by other churches, and now here I show up at the doorstep of this Mormon church, but I’ve never been fished by females, and this time, after 4 other times of elders coming to me, I had two ladies who are so comely and so sweet and beautiful and just marvelous. If not for their constant commications, I’d be a wreck, but they’ve kept me steady, as well as meeting with the new missionaries, and an occasional meeting with our Bishop in our ward, I’ve met with him a few times. I have ONE BIG thing I have to give up, or it will block my endowment and I believe that when the time comes I will be ready and once a year goes by and they see I am for real, not trying to get contacts in the Biz, they WILL embrace me. It’s enduring and enduring and enduring, so much has happened to me since joining the Mormons, it’s joyous and strange and surreal and odd and I’m enduring. It’s all I can say, no justification but thanks again for your post. Bless you, you are now in my prayers. Feel free to respond anytime.
@globalgoldira — Thank you for your quick and detailed answers. From your response I see that you feel that the LDS church fulfills a need in your life and, I know that a feeling of or the need to feel as part of something does and can fill certain voids in one’s life…I completely understand that. Also, it would appear that you think I was offended or hurt by someone in the LDS church and that is why I left…which is not the case at all.
My reasons for leaving were many and it began a journey that turned me to an agnostic first (since I realized all religions were creations of men), then to atheism (since I discovered that god was made up — for the manipulation of mankind) and now to be a total anti-theist. But, to get back on point of what the original question was: Why Mormons Leave? My answers are many; however, I have limited those answers to the below responses (all based upon 100% verifiable historical evidence – none of the points below are made up nor based upon a personal opinion, just the cold hard facts):
1- Joseph Smith was a complete and total fraud, a pedophile, a rapist, an embezzler and one of the best recorded scam artists’ of the past couple of centuries.
2- The LDS church perpetuates this (Joseph Smith) fraud upon all its followers and have now, in violation of all canonized scripture, elevated Joseph Smith to deity, adorning offices and church buildings with his graven image.
3- Evidence abounds that Joseph Smith’s creation of the Book of Mormon and his writings in the Pearl of Great Price are all total fiction; yet, and here is the fraud, being passed off as the literal words of god and or ancient prophets (all of which has been disproven so many times via historical, archeological and anthropological research that it still amazes that so many continue to be duped into thinking these writings are anything other than poorly contrived fiction).
4- Jesus Christ never ever existed! Oh, perhaps there were a few people that might have had this name, but there is NO historical evidence that the biblical version of a Jesus ever lived (the myriads of actual physical data and historical evidence that proves that Jesus did not exist is over whelming — yet so many deny that facts placed before them, thus proving what I stated earlier, by Carl Sagan: “You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe.”)
5- The number of writings and or witnesses of infamous leaders, throughout the historical recordings and or personal journals (throughout recorded time), shows forth myriads of blatant admissions that the religions of the world have been and were always intended as a form to control (for those in power) all for the purposes of manipulating the masses purely for the sake of total control (this is so thoroughly documented that it is amazing that the vast majority of educated people do not realize or recognize this fact).
6- In recent history many claim that the Founding Fathers of the USA were all devout Christens and they used their beliefs to frame the organic laws of North America. Again, this is total bologna and the extreme evidence that the majority of the framers were either atheists or agnostics is available in the American historical records and annuals of the time.
As I said before, beliefs in these childish things were fun and exciting while I was a youth; however, as I have grown up and realized that there is no fantastical creatures and mythological characters, I have realized that all religion (e.g., Judeo-Christian, Islam, Mormonism, etc.) are all creations of man for the manipulation of mankind. Clear and simple! And, for me, the freedom and liberty that has come with that realization has been life-changing. I sincerely wish all could experience this level of true liberation of the mind, body and soul.
I have been raised in the church….and now 60. I started questioning things a year ago…..when I was looking at our tithing statement and realized my name wasn’t on there! I was the one who made out the checks every week and paid tithing why was my husbands on there and not mine? Seething inside! I always wondered why my inspiration wasn’t good enough in a calling …ie. Primary President, Stake Primary Pres. Always being overridden by the Priesthood. Also, always wondered about all the great people I know who are not LDS but such amazing people who do more for others than many Mormons…..doesn’t God them just as much?! Polygamy also ALWAYS has bothered me….to the extreme! Then found out my Bishop was talking about my daughter in Ward Correlation Meeting and saying things on supposition (I actually overheard the RS Pres talking about it to another ward member at the Grocery store!!! That is how I found out) just so, so disheartened!
Sir, I can totally relate to what you are saying. I too may have been fooled by the congregation and missionaries, not God! I confided many things to the missionaries and one other gal, and all of a sudden no one talks to me or calls me from my congregation. I don’t want to go on and on, but I saw your post and wanted to let you know that it’s not God I’m upset with, it’s that congregation, they are sort of phony and gossipy. I know no Mormon is perfect, but I didn’t join for friends, I liked the Mormon values and strict ways with God. I do feel much closer to God than I have ever felt in all my years of living, and that’s just going to be enough for me. No one calls, and a few in that congregation are totally shunning me. I saw this woman I was helping with a resume, and said hello to her and she just passed me right by. Very sad. I feel very sad that I love the religion and the Book of Mormon and other Mormon stuff written by Joseph Smith, but as for the congregation, I’m not getting along with them. Each time I come to church it gets a bit worse for me, the shunning and murmuring are in high degree, I feel the vibes. So now I have to shut up and maybe go to a different ward, who knows at this point. All I know is no one is calling me offering any more lifts to church, and I leave before it all ends and take a bus back and to home. Everything in my life has been effected, but some good things have happened but mostly very negative and bad. Good luck to you and I hope you endure. I’m not doing so great.
Whoops Plsherratt, I mean Miss: I’m sorry I said sir….
That is ok. I have been called worse! Ha!
Hang in there. If this religion is what you truly want then I would advise either a visit to your Bishop or change wards.
I went to a different ward for a while but still had feelings of disillusionment. To tell the truth I haven’t had Home Teachers or Visiting Teachers for at least 8years. One time I asked the RS pres if they did away with VT ( which I knew they didn’t because I still went and did mine!) but I never had any visits….and not one person ever calls….ever. But I am fine with it. I don’t need the social aspect of it at all. I like where I am!
Pisherrat, I do need the calls, and I do need the social things of the church. I know why they are doing it. Plain and simple, I AM WEIRD and offbeat and different, not bad, or breaking covenants, or bad mouthing. They just DO NOT like me and the missionaries keep saying, OH they Love you, oh they like you, don’t worry, BUT I DO! I’m depressed. lonely and seeking a new ward as fast as I can do it. I spoke to the bishop and other people in charge about this. One girl is so strange, and I said she was saying stuff to me, so instead of telling her to stop, I get this phony call from her. She’s not into me, she was TOLD to call. Also, whenever I tell the missionaries private stuff, it gets back to people. OH, I am being shunned. And I am not being called, and my teacher barely looks my way. She came here to my home one time and that was that. My male high priest guy has not called in weeks and has been shunning me at church, he’s there, but hides from me. Lots do now. Missionaries coming today so I may say I’m changing wards. Maybe that will, maybe not. Maybe I’ll take a break from it all and just read my scriptures. I love Documents of Covetant, Price of the Pearl. No one likes me there. I feel it in my heart. Thanks. I will let you know what happens. Bless you.
I recently came across a quote that has really helped me lately…..”don’t let your attitude affect your altitude!” I really need to change my attitude ….a lot. It affects the people I love the most. I don’t know if that helps you. It is hard when you know people don’t like you…..or you perceive they don’t. Chin up! My mama used to say, “attitude is everything”. Just keep smiling and they will wonder why? Ha! Also…..I have learned through personal experience, not to say personal stuff to people at church. It is sad but it the place of gossip and stuff gets around. It’s like living in a small town, no one has secrets because everyone knows them!
Thanks Pisherratt, I really needed to hear it. Last night missionaries came and helped me and sat with me for over 3 hours, and I want to know if they did that because they heard I am a bit unhappy on some things, or because they wanted to. Let me know your thoughts. They came, but no lesson, just sitting around talking about life and family, showed them photos of family, and we had a wonderful time. Wish the congregation would do it, but I have to say that I am happier with the Church now. I love being a Mormon, and hope I stick with it. thanks again. Be well and God Bless.
Ghana
The plan of salvation is very simple and highly effective.
They get you enticed with being like God, bring God to a definite beginning, like you and i, that even Jesus married after all, that Lucifer showed us the way that we can create our own planets, resurrect our wives with their secret names, and be exalted in pairs, and go on to create a new Satan in our private jet galaxy in space. But until then, pay your tithes. Tithing is all the faith you need to get there.
‘Heavenly Father’ and atonement is all we hear, covering up hideous evil in black and white.
Satan has used a very clever strategy. Not different from the first one which worked somehow in Eden. But this time in the name of ‘Heavenly Father’.
The Anti-Christ bears a ‘Christ name tag.
Ever since i begun finding answers because they couldn’t answer common sense questions, the reality of Satan became clear. He wears no horns or blasts bombs. He comes with a bible and surface solutions.
Search the scriptures, and non of his doctrines lead to to salvation of the True God, through his only begotten son Jesus the Christ.
@Ghana — Yes, it (Mormonism) is all part of an elaborate scam that was actually started a few thousand years ago; but Joseph Smith figured out a way to improve upon the scam and hone it to near perfection.
The fact is, there never was a Jesus, historically or otherwise; that is, in the biblical / BofM or any other sense of the definition. Jesus was a plagiarized story or form taken from several other mystical belief systems and formed into what later became the Christian movement. In the 1800’s, thanks to a more tolerant government, Joseph Smith and company were able to build upon this mythology and make, to the feeble and simple minded person, an air-tight validation of a “restored” gospel. Bottom line, Joseph Smith and the Mormons are frauds built upon an ancient scam that continues to perpetuate itself every generation.
Once people begin to wake up and grow-up, intellectually, they will realize that all forms of religion are based upon mysticism and have no foundation once looked at deductively.
So, to make a long story short, there is no god or heaven upon us and there is no devil or hell below us! I encourage you to take the path of true freedom and liberation found through a-theism.
Interesting. Wish i could gulp down all you said. With so much experience and having encountered the supernatural in many ways, considering the environment am coming from, that won’t be easy. But as even children on record get to wake up from ‘Invention of lying’, am open to proof. But i thought this thread was about why people leave Mormonism, not Christianity in general
@Ghana — Aren’t they one in the same and does not one have to believe in one in order to believe in the other? Therefore, if leaving one you are leaving both (that being Mormonism & Christianity). Yes, I was born into Mormonism; however, once I grew up and had documented proof of the fraud of both Christianity and Mormonism…well, it was very easy to walk away from it all.
Sorry Bright, you are not very bright. All you said in your post was bull! First off, we do not believe in living on other planets. You are confusing the different levels of heaven with extraterrestrials!!! The name we have given the different forms of heaven sound like extraterrestrials! Celestrial Heaven, middle heaven, bottom is called Terrarestreial (sp?). Joseph Smith did not condone multi wives, that was Brigham Young. And the Mormon religion is NOT a fraud. I can’t believe your bad attitude. You bring Satan in to make Mormons look bad. I know I’ve had a few problems in the social corner with my Mormon congregation folks, but I am slowly working that out and even got a little calling. So I’m on my way to understand it better. I have to say in all my years of finding the right way, I’ve never felt so close to GOD than anything. Saying Heavenly Father is not Satan. Heavenly Father is not Satan. Satan does not exist. God does. Satan is just a part of a dark side of God himself. God is one being, there are no angels, no devil! God is all. Heavenly Father is all. Jesus is his son, but from God. The Father, The Sun, The Holy Spirit! ONE in 3. So I suggest you go back to reading Book of Mormon and get on your knees and pray to God for forgiveness. Yes, there are fake religions, go pick on the Scienctologist, leave Mormon alone. Yes, again, I admit I was worried about my place with the Mormons, maybe they thought I was coo coo, or weird, and I may just be weird and coo coo, but God tests our faith to see if we are honest and real, although he can read our minds because he is in our minds, on the subonscious part, that’s why it is so hard to reach him, or you think you can’t. Tune into your subscicious mind and you will see there is a true religion going on with being Mormon. I for one, doubted my own self, not them. I thought I was not good enough for them and maybe they have judged me, but I can change that by reading scriptures asking questions and finding the RIGHT answers. All your posts are doing is making havoc. Get back to studying. Don’t glorify evil.
@globalgoldira (on your response to Bright / Ghana) — Your response is so full of inaccuracies that it is difficult to say where to start. Most of what you stated has no basis in fact and is actually counter to the basic foundational Mormon beliefs — so, I would suggest before you make these types of responses, in the future, that (as you told this other commenter) in your own words “…Get back to studying…” and PLEASE validate your facts before stating them.
With all that said, though, here are some points you should study also —
Joseph Smith was a FRAUD and, if you look up the definition and compare it to his life story, you will see he fits the definition of a Fraud and a Charlatan, as follows:
Fraud — deception intended to result in financial or personal gain…a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.
Charlatan — a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge, skill or power.
Also, Joseph Smith was the one that started polygamy so as to cover up his philandering and misogynistic behavior (this can be validated by the myriads of journal entries from the many women and girls that he slept with and the parents of some of the young girls that he fooled into thinking they would go to hell if they did not bring their daughters to him to feed his hunger for sexual conquest). If you were to look at his home in Nauvoo and how many rooms it had or that he had designed it to have; along with the real purpose of the Nauvoo Hotel; you would then learn from your studies that he could not leave women alone. It was Emma that finally forced the issue and, because she had threatened to begin engaging in the same time of salacious affairs as her husband was that (and only then) that the miraculous revelations that Joseph received (first his using a revelation from god to tell Emma to repent…and then second on his revelation that men should have multiple wives) all to be found in the D&C.
The Mormon church continues to perpetuate this fraud upon its members by covering up the truths of their history and by further building upon the entire mystical beliefs that there is a god and or a heaven above and a devil and or hell below — all of which is pure mythology. Then they add to this by claiming that there are other writings (e.g., BofM, D&C, PofGP, etc.) that prove it all to be true; however, these documents have all been proven to be fraudulent.
I am sure you feel good when you go to church and believe that you feel something there…but people all over the world that go to their churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, concert halls and palladiums…they too feel the same thing (which is really the collective power of the human soul connecting with other living souls).
Therefore, please do a bit more research, find the real truth and then you will be finally set free!
William: I respect what you say, but you don’t have to keep spelling it out! I know that “feel something” when I am at church, and when I am not there. Ever since I joined with the Mormons and became one, I am learning more on how to be accepted now. I have quieted myself down and I no longer thing the congregation thinks I am odd. Heard a lesson the other day at the Church that said, “God love the odd, and peculiar!!!!” That’s me. I love my God, not Joseph Smith, he just introduced it to me. I am not worshiping Joseph Smith, I am having a better relationship with my Lord God and Jesus Christ. Yes, I need more study, but I have what I believe and that is of GOD JESUS and the Holy Spirit, which is really ONE thing, GOD! I get your point, and wish no anger to you, but I can’t believe the words you put on this page. You sound like the fanatic, not Joseph Smith. And as for all that “allied propaganda” hog wash about the hotel, the affairs, and Emma getting involved, that is nothing more than a nuevello soap opera! LOL, you make it sound like a “Love Fest”. These people lived in a time where rumors were sent flying like clouds in the sky. Until they rope me up and make me marry an already married Mormon man, I’m staying. Maybe you should read my article
I’M A MORMON and STAYING THAT WAY: I’M STAYING WITH THE MORMONS AS A MORMON!
Why I became a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints aka The Mormons! All of my life I have loved God, and believed in Jesus Christ. When I was 5 years old, my mother brought me to a special place in New York State where Joseph Smith saw his vision given to him by the Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.
I stood right where Joseph Smith stood when he saw his vision of a new way to bring in “the modern prophets and end the apostasy. Now there are modern prophets and an established “real” Church of Christ.
I as Joseph, was bullied, beaten and cast out when I tried to talk of Jesus Christ. I was at a summer camp in Vermont. I was 8 years old. I was with the girls in my group. They did not like me. I was so different. We were talking of what God was. I talked about Jesus. All the girls were “Jewish”. They said, “Leslie, do you want us to crucify you like Jesus?” I said “Yes!”
They took shoe laces and tied me between the bathroom door. Then they sang “Crucify her, crucify her!” It did not hurt, it was children role playing and I did not mind feeling what it felt like to be Jesus on the Cross. I even yelled out “Forgive them, for they do not know what they do! Mother, Mother!” And, “It is finished, Father, into your hands I commend my spirit!” From that day I wanted to know Jesus and learn about God.
When I was 10 years old, I was taken to where Joseph Smith found the golden plates. There were many tall mounds of dirt and we tried to dig and find something, but the guide said “No, it’s been all taken!” But it was the place where Joseph Smith found the plates and wrote Book of Mormon.
I realized that being a Mormon would be very good for me. I babysat 4 little Mormon boys when I was 15 years old, and I went to the Mormon Church with them. I learned a lot. I liked the Mormon way of peace and family.
My best friend junior high was a Mormon and also captain of the cheer leaders of my high school. The other girls would say, “Why do you like that odd person (Me)? So weird, So strange?” My Mormon friend told them she loved me and always would love me.
I studied with many “Elders” in the last few years. But when The Mormon Church let women be missionaries, I met two Mormon missionaries. They led me to the right way. I embraced the Mormons and was baptized within one month of meeting them and they saved my life. I found much peace and happiness, and joy.
But most importantly, I am learning how to be a better person. I am learning to be kind, good and I think before I talk. I also think of others first, and have received more blessings since joining the Mormon Church, although I am not perfect and have made some mistakes. I have been a member of the Mormon Church for almost 8 months. I love being with the Mormon Church. They have taught me so much and I have learned so much. To calm down, to not talk all the time, to give of myself, to listen to others and to hear God better.
Most of all I learned how to pray to Jesus Christ so much better and the Heavenly Father, I can feel it.
Please join us. You will find many things with the Mormons as I did. I got my family back, I’ve met new friends, I’ve learned more about Jesus Christ, and I believe with all my heart that The Book of Mormon is True in the name of Jesus Christ.
But it has not been easy, I must increase my faith in the congregation, which is happening now, and I feel they are responding, because they know I am a good person even if I am odd!
@globalgoldira — Thank you for your quick response and details on where you are coming from. I must also say that if this truly makes you happy and you feel you have found your bliss…then knock yourself out.
But please, answer a couple of questions for me:
1- Are you interested in the truth or do you prefer fantasy and mythology more?
2- If you had the entire true stories about the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and the reality of the early days of the LDS Church, would you want to know about that — or are you more of an “ignorance is bliss” type of person?
Please remember, I was born and raised in the Mormon faith…and no, I was not offended by someone, felt a need to escape due to a serious sin or anything else like that…I just finally grew up and, much like believing in Santa Claus, I was able to put away those childish beliefs and now enjoy a life unencumbered by mysticism and superstition.
Look forward to your response.
@William: I like the TRUTH William, but peppered with a bit of all the things you said. Bliss, ignorance, mythology, Mormon, etc. It is alllll rolled up into one big snowball. You’ve heard the saying, The Ball Is In Your Hands, will I translate things like that into this: “He’s got the WHOLE world in his HANDS~” I’ve been able to take Mormon doctrines and books and sayings and egyptian book of the dead scrolls that Joseph was able to weave an incredible VISION from a bunch of old BOOK OF THE DEAD SCROLLS. I did my thesis on The Book of The Dead, and when I saw he had tried his hand at opening his mind and translating them, and what he came up with, I knew it was totally subconsicious and totally off the top of his mind, which is how this story was conceived by him, which HE THOUGHT was a vision, but in reality it WAS a vision he was seeing because I read the same stuff i college, didn’t see the symbols, but when I read BOOK OF ABRAHAM, I began to change my views on what Mormon was really all about. It’s not about all that pomp and secret multi wives bull crap that people have concocted who don’t really have the VISION to see beyond the “SMOKE SCREEN” the Church actually puts up to keep out the riffraff. The ward I go to is pretty high power, I can see, smell, taste and sense it. It’s not been easy for me to really have the faith to know that I CARE if THEY CARE if I CARE, and sometimes I thought to myself: Do they care that I care IF they care? They do. I’m sure of it. In a strange parallel, my new religion reminds me of Masons mixed with Jewish which sort of comes out Mormon. I know what I am talking about here. I know what I feel. I feel a lot the bull crap people say about “US” is ignorance. And in the end it’s not about what Joseph Smith said or did, but how Joseph Smith allowed people like myself to find a closer way to get to God and live in accordance with what God wants. I don’t go for all the pomp and circumstance that is only a smoke screen to the real deal with being Mormon. And I too have put away the childish notions and am now concentrating on God and his blessings and what is close to me. I have changed from becoming Mormon, but still have a long way to go! And I have to accept the fact that now I am friendless, and no family member is understanding or accepting my new faith and in many ways I feel like Mrs. Joseph Smith, not Emma, but ME as a female parallel to Joseph. Maybe you will understand when you read my vision I had when I had an endoscopy and colonoscopy 1 month ago and they put me under: READ, it’s very very interesting and would turn any non believer into a believer if they were open to it.
I SAW JOSEPH SMITH IN A VISION, NO JOKE!
It’s coming up to almost one year since I was baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And in all that time, I have been fighting some gastric illness that crept up 5 days after I joined the Church back in February of 2014.
A few trips to the Gastro doctor proved there may be a problem, enzymes were not functioning, the Pancreas wasn’t working right, What’s the story, B12 shots? And finally the big “C” word came up, they had to find out.
So I began preparing for the colonoscopy (like the 3 times before) and drank the solution to clean up that area, I had very strong feelings I was about to go through an ordeal, something very unpleasant, but not all that horrid as I had first imagined it would be. I have gone through the same symptoms 14 times since 2007.
Maybe it was time for a good shake up after 2 years of no triggers to see the err of my ways, my posts, how I hurt many of my family and gaining nothing more than their disdain.
So, I have been praying to be better, to act better, to try and mend fences, with the family I was sure I had lost forever. And it still may be. Grudges rear their ugly heads with a word or the wrong phrase, another mis-communication, uh oh!
In the interim, I always make the most of medical procedures by taking it up a notch if they are going to put me out. I have always had visions of those who’ve past on, and this time I’d be under longer, because the doctor was going to be doing a very complicated endoscopy with biopsies galore, so I knew it would be at least an hour or more.
“I had a sinking feeling, due to all the trauma, that I may become ill when I woke up, sick as a dog, vomiting, the works! I am rarely ever wrong about when it happens, but I was ready for this attack, because it was going to be a shock to my system when pieces of flesh near my colon are cut or extracted for the pathology lab!”
I spoke quietly with the anesthesiologist, always a male, always with a slight French accent, and also very kind, at least in the last 3 procedures I had endured in the past 5 years. Then my Gastro doctor waltzed in. He reminded me of a famous agent for a big movie star. He looks that good.
Didn’t even get the relax meds, just laid on the surgical bed waiting to see my 3rd vision when they put me out. “I already had ‘Him’ in mind from the very beginning. Yes, Joseph Smith, founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, whom I felt very close too, as well as very open to wanting to see him, if God allowed. It would only be 10 seconds to my mind’s vision. I prayed as gastro doctor’s staff started suiting up.
The Vision Begins: As they put me out, the doctor placed a plastic white guard around my lips and said to count backwards starting with “10”, but instead I whispered “Joseph Smith” over and over. It was actually hard to say the name “Joseph” because of the mouth guard, but I think my mind knew what it wanted from the moment I started reading The Book of Mormon back in January.
As I closed my eyes, everything turned a cloudy white around me. I tried to keep my awareness. For a moment I floated nowhere. All of a sudden, I see something, someone, it’s amazing, but I don’t remember it until later on when I stopped vomiting in the E.R. and when they wheeled me up to my room! I started to recall what I’d seen for 15 seconds and here is what I saw in this strange vision at the Gastro doctor’s surgical suite.
The Vision: I was standing on the side of a big farm field. It was afternoon, fall weather. I saw “Him” about 40 feet in the distance cupping his eyes trying to see who I was, and I was doing the same, cupping my eyes to see him in his purple lambskin coat with a natural looking fleece collar, black tight pants and tall light brown very well made boots that curled up around his knees. I remember what his hair was like and how it was styled. The purple jacket and boots stuck in my mind the most. But the air was thick and cool, blowing a bit.
He was standing with another man, but the other gentleman was blurred out. The jacket that had fleece on the collar was not bright royal purple, but dyed a lighter shade! And those ‘cool’ boots he wore that came up to his knees, and the leather was interestingly fluffed out at the top, almost like they were a fashion statement.
The most realistic part of this vision is the broken stained glass shards in the field instead of crops! What does that mean and where were the crops? Why was there broken stained glass shards covering the whole field?
I can tell from looking at paintings and impression of Smith that he had curlier hair, and in those days it looks like they tried to tame it. He may have also had some Jewish DNA running through his veins, ever so slightly. I am learning that anything is possible, but the human spirit is stronger than we can imagine, and had a sixth sense all its own in my vision of Joseph Smith.
He was standing at the edge of the field of broken stained glass looking at me, just staring, so very strange to me, now that I recall it. Shards of stained glass church windows were strewn across this 100 foot field, and he was standing at one end, and I at the other. But it was the closer part of the field, not the “end field was.
I want to ask you if I really saw something, a vision, while I was under getting my procedures which landed me in the E.R. puking my guts out and 3 days in the hospital! Could I have really seen the Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith? I feel I have seen a figment, or it could have just been my own mind’s urges to see Him. Or perhaps as they say about dreams, everyone in your dream is YOU! And that is a theory too.
What did I see? One of the missionaries dismissed it kindly as ‘a dream, not real.’ But it felt real to me. And I saw what I wanted to see, I saw Joseph Smith, dream or no dream. He didn’t utter a word, just stood there as I have written. That’s it, and maybe as time goes on, I’ll understand. As I typed “as time goes on” the lady on TV said “as time goes on…” right after I wrote it.
Celestial marriage has no biblical basis, neither does it make sense.
@Bright — You are 100% correct, in the strictest sense, there is NO biblical record of Celestial Marriage. As an added fact, if this ceremony was so crucial to the “next steps” (from the eternal perspective) then would this not have been mentioned in the 5 books of Moses or in the Inspired version of the Bible…or in the questionable books in the PofGP? Also, the other fact that this was NOT part of the ancient Judeo-Christian religions is that (if you read the Bible) if a women’s husband died, she become the immediate property of his brothers and or next of kin, one of whom she would be married to so as to keep her “ownership” within the family (a celestial marriage would have made this reasoning pointless — so, another example of no Celestial Marriage, even at the time of Jesus). The concept of eternal marriage was strictly another example of the scams that Joseph Smith conjured up and used to justify his own perpetuation of the mystical fraud put-forth by those that had gone before him…the concept of eternal marriage was an old world myth used by certain protestant religious groups as a way to keep couples from having external affairs; therefore, using the ideal of being together and not being alone (after death) as way to force fidelity. Joseph Smith just added one more level to his mystical totem pole for his followers (but it was an idea that existed long before him and example of another plagiarized concept — all of which still has no pre or post-Christian biblical foundation).
All religions of world are all built upon ancient mythological beliefs that are creations of men. So, just as with all mystical forms of traditions and superstitions, so too is the concept of Eternal Marriage…it just is NOT true; any more than things dreamed of in Greek Mythology or any other mystical form of belief and or worship.
Celestial Marriage is central to Mormonism, everything directly / indirectly is centered around that. Its so enticing to our young women, considering the surface significance of virtuosity, and to the men, that a woman would remain ever faithful even till death. But must this require a special temple programming ritual to make them so? Is it Biblical that until one marries, he/she can’t enter into the ‘Highest Glory’? Its absolutely a false doctrine.
How does a member convince / convert a woman, knowing in case she dies, he can marry and seal more, and bring them to live with the single man he married, another woman or more she never knew? but if he dies, she shouldn’t marry and seal another man – if she does, then is it justified that death that caused her to be unfaithful? Even if she can marry for time only as its taught, what if she ends up loving the new man more than the first? Must she remain a widow the rest of her life? or secretly sleep with the Bishop? These answers have never been answered. What if it were you?
It gets more and more complex, because the doctrine is based on man-made illogical reasoning. Its never anywhere in the Bible. God knows the extent of love between couples to make them eternal according to their wish at the resurrection, not by humans, in a supposedly sacred ritual which merely commits them to paying tithes and give their properties to Mormonism, not God of the Bible.
And by the way, how did Joseph Smith translate the book of Mormon? – With a seer stone in a hat, upstairs in a room. There were no physical ‘indiana jones’ gold plates, but divination stones – occultist familiar spirits.
A true story out of several, unsolved.
Posted 10 September 2012 – 02:09 PM
Hi, I’m a young (24 year old) widow. My husband of two years passed away a year and a half ago. I don’t want to break my sealing. I’ve prayed about it in the Temple and feel I shouldn’t. I don’t want to lose my first husband either. I contacted the first presidency and it is confirmed that living women can only be sealed to one man, so unless I break my sealing I cannot be sealed to a second husband (ironically the one I’ll live my life with). This was a policy change that occurred in the 1980’s – they used to allow widowed women to be sealed twice. I recently started dating a guy, but he ended up telling me that he needed to be sealed so it could never work out unless he’s sealed. I’m still really upset about it. Is that really the boat I’m stuck on? I can only marry a divorcee (he’s going to want a sealing too) or widower? I’m an attractive girl, I’ve never had problems getting asked out or asking a guy out. However, getting back into the dating world makes me feel fearful, like I don’t deserve to get remarried because for two years, I already had a good marriage. I want the priesthood in my home for me and my young child, who also needs a righteous father. Guys: Would you date a girl that was sealed? If you were in my situation, can you really blame guys for wanting to be sealed? That’s what we’re taught at conference. “Get sealed at all costs.”
FALSE SELFISH DOCTRINE
@SamCantbeFooled — Sorry for your loss, even if it was a couple of years ago, being alone is not ever easy.
What you are going through is one of the several points that shows (one of the many) kinks in the Mormon mystical system; a system that was born of ancient mysticism and has no foundation in fact. It perpetuates the ancient ideology that women are the property of men; hence, the reason a man can have as many wives as he wants (sealed or otherwise). Built on antiquated ideas in which a woman can only be the property of one man at a time and that that property transcends death. Yet, if “Celestial Marriage” was not a product of Joseph Smith’s imagination, then we would find examples of it in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon — unfortunately, NO EXAMPLES EXIST!
In fact, if you read the Biblical record, the concept of marriage was not one of the first things that the mystical gods revealed…that was something that came later. If it had not come later, then Adam could not have pro-created with his daughters, grand-daughters, great-granddaughters and so on (because he had to first multiply and replenish the world – according the bible). Also, if the concept of eternal marriage had existed, then Jesus would not have answered (when the question was posed to him about who a wife belonged to after her husband died) that she would marry her deceased husband’s brother…because marriage was a contract of ownership, not partnership and (more importantly) it certainly was NOT eternal.
My suggestion is that you find what makes you happy, stop focusing on mystical mumbo-jumbo and find a good man to be your husband in life and who can (also) be a good father to your child and future children. Don’t harness your ability to be free with old-fashioned mythological superstitions that have zero basis in fact — go and enjoy your life, focusing on the things that bring you true happiness then (and only then) will be free and have found bliss.
Thanks William. The feature story was an example I quoted from a real life, existing situation. Thanks for highlighting this man-made central doctrine of Mormonism depriving people of happiness.
@SamCantbeFooled — Thank you for the extra note and, more importantly, connecting the dots. Now I understand the direction of your postings. Too bad more of those living in bubble-land are not able to discover the truth.
Yo, William, what did you think of my vision stuff? You never commented on it.
@globalgodlira — I did not answer because you did not really answer my questions; however, your indirect answers made it quite clear to me that you enjoy the fantasy and the mystical wonderfulness of Joseph Smith. Though I have made it clear that I no longer am part of this or any other religion, I was raised in it and I am very familiar with their story. According to the Mormon message, they claim all things are supposed to bring people to Jesus Christ. Reading through your several messages, including your last one, it almost sounds as if it has all brought you to Joseph Smith.
The Mormon claim is that Joseph Smith translated all of the questionable and or so-called scriptures he created; yet, according to what you implied in your writings, you claim it was all a vision and he just wrote down the visions. Frankly, that would make Joseph Smith and all the witnesses, plus the LDS record on the matter all a lie. (Again, all of which I know is a lie any way so it does not matter that much to me one way or another.)
Your vision / dream / drug induced coma / etc., which you asked me to comment on and which I am sure (to you) all felt very real. That was, unfortunately, a drug influenced hallucination that (based upon what you were thinking of when you were put under) it all fell in line with your last conscious thoughts and fantasizing of Joseph Smith. Examples of this can be found in numerous stories from all over the world, for example: Catholics claim to see a saint or Mary; Jews see Moses or Jehovah; Muslims see Mohammad; Atheists see something that others might say mirrors an astral plain…in other words, people focused on what they want to see, desire or are fantasizing about end up become self-fulfilling prophecies (to themselves) in similar situations.
The reason I call all religions a mystical belief system is because it is ALL based on MYSTICISM; which, if you have not looked it up, it is basically defined as: Belief characterized by self-delusion or dreamy confusion of thought, especially when based on the assumption of occult qualities or mysterious agencies. (Please look it up and research it a bit…you will find that what you say you believe is all based upon mysticism and nothing more.)
Perhaps the Mormon-thing and fantasies of Joseph Smith are fulfilling for you right now — but, just think, ancient religions found within Egypt is what Christianity was later built upon (still all mysticism) — and, sadly enough, the scamming / philandering / fraud (the one you know as Joseph Smith) built upon that ancient story knowing that there is a sucker born every minute…and, what is sad, is the Mormon’s, under the Corporation of the First Presidency, continue to perpetuate that fraud. THAT IS WHY YOU FOUND PARALLELS IN THE BOOK OF THE DEAD AND OTHER EGYPTION STORIES…because it (Christianity) was based upon Egyptian mythology, turned from a story about Horus into a story about Jesus. Joseph Smith latched onto that during his early gold-digging / treasure seeking / grifting days as the best way to become rich and, more importantly, to get women.
Wow William, WOW! I might as well quit the church and forget that since I have embraced it, I have felt closer to God. But I am not close with anyone in that congregation and it is coming quite clear to me now, and by reading your responses, which I do appreciate it. Especially your honesty. At least when I had my endoscopy I awoke and was not like Joan Rivers who never awoke. OMG, I could have been stuck on Joseph Smith’s farm! LOL, so what does broken church stain glass windows instead of crops mean to you? Whatever I saw, experienced, and did, I am Mormon and I’m staying Mormon, it does not matter the congregation “DOESN’T GET ME” and shuns me. It’s not about them, it’s about my God and I. And Jesus Christ. I’m not a dumb girl, I have two degrees. But I see your point in answering my query and post. It’s not easy to explain and I tend to OVER explain which changes the whole sane meaning to why I am Mormon. But I have to say it’s been following me around since I was a little kid. I always was interested in them. Now I am one of them, and I am being shunned by congregation for sure. I know that now. But I will endure and continue to reach for my endowment with or without the congregation. Got my calling the other day, no fanfare and no calls from the girl handling it for the church to tell me anything and it will be going on two days. I thought they’d call or tell me more, but no, nothing. It’s always the same with them. I’m in the wrong ward, I need to be in a more poorer Mormon ward, not the actors and producers of Hollywood. Geez. They are the worst types and that is why I am having a problem with the congregation and feeling one with them and it’s been almost a year. I don’t know what to think. But I do believe in what Joseph said and translated from the Book of the Dead. I did my thesis on Book of the Dead and I understand many symbols that Joseph missed. I see what he was doing. I see God’s words in those scriptures and isn’t that all I should be counting. So what if I’m fascinated by Joseph Smith, So what if people say he was a fraud, and maybe he was, but for me, he’s a springboard for me to a higher level with God. I know what I feel. I don’t feel liked by people, I feel loved by God, God loves the odd and peculiar so I’m in with him and J.C. As for my answer(s) to your query, I say yes, I am in love with all you asked me about. I like them all, mythology, etc. All you said and asked me in your post. So my answer is YES I love it all. All you listed. So if I stay with that ward, I’ll eventually be accepted, it does take much time. I will keep going, even though now I am friendless. Those that knew me before I was Mormon don’t call, and my husband’s friends are all actors and in the biz, so they NEVER liked me. In fact, my eyes are even wider and open now to my husband’s crap and fraud I found out as I progressed with being Mormon. He is fake, he is fairweather and one day I will leave and find a new husband and a new ward. But staying Mormon is my goal. Love the whole religion. I have read much on Joseph Smith and to me, he is my hero. Sorry, but true. You did not lie to me, I don’t lie to you. I thank you for helping me with you words. i now know what is what with all this negative stuff happening to me. Not by God, but by other people either in my life, or running away from it. Bless you and stay always honest.
@globalgoldira — You do have a way of straying off topic…I guess you already realize that though. I also realize that your last response (about quitting the church) was a bit of tongue-n-cheek humor. In all seriousness, you would be much happier if you did not pursue the Mormon way; of course, everyone must travel their own path in life…so, enjoy the journey.
If you do want to stay involved with the church, then you will need to realize that everything you have shared on this blog you will need to keep to yourself. Regardless of the branch / ward / congregation that you are a part of (anywhere in the world) — if you start sharing any of your personal opinions / dreams / reason for conversion that does NOT align with the Fourfold Mission of the Church; then, as with any corporation, you will be considered non-compliant with LDS dogma and a potential apostate. Your role is to Perfect the Saints; Proclaim the JC Gospel (not the Joseph Smith one); Redeem the Dead, and; Care for the Poor and Needy. Anything else will get you ostracized (at best) and or excommunicated (at the worst). In their Mormon opinions (in which they will surely judge you) having a personal spiritual relationship with anyone else other than JC will make you an outcast…the members will shun you and you will NOT have any visits from the Home Teachers or Visiting Teachers (thought they publicly almost deify Joseph Smith — to most members, secretly, he is a pariah and an embarrassment because of his womanizing and hunger for power / domination).
I do not have time to discuss all aspects of why religions are scams and perpetuators of a fraud…I only have time to show how the Christian religions were a compilation of plagiarisms from the following ancient mythologies and whom entire Jesus Christ fictional story was created from (just to name a few):
• Adad of Assyria
• Adonis, Apollo and Zeus of Greece
• Agni of India
• Alcides/Hercules of Thebes
• Attis of Phrygia
• Baal of Phoenicia
• Bali of Afghanistan
• Buddha/Beddhu of India, China and Japan
• Deva Tat (Buddha) of Siam
• Hesus of the Druids
• Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt
• Indra of Tibet/India
• Jao/Iao of Nepal
• Krishna of India
• The Mikado of the Shintos
• Mithra of Persia
• Odin of the Scandinavians
• Prometheus of Caucasus/Greece
• Quetzalcoatl of Mexico
• Salivahana of Burma
• Tammuz of Syria
• Thor of the Gauls
• Universal Monarch of the Sibyls
• Wittoba of the Bilingonese
• Xamolxis/Zamolxis of Thrace
• Zarathustra/Zoroaster of Persia
Joseph Smith was keenly aware of this and created his own personalized scam, based on his BofM fraud, that bridged with the above stories. The reasons that you feel there is a similar sound to Joseph Smith’s stories is that you already studied a source that he too built upon; that being: Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt — that is why (to you) it has a “familiar” ring to it.
You are seeking answers and striving for enlightenment; hence the broken stained glass from your dream / hallucination…please keep seeking and you will find the truth and, more importantly, it will set you free — BUT YOU WILL NOT FIND THE TRUTH IN THE MORMON CHURCH OR ANYTHING OTHER MAN-MADE RELIGION!
Best of luck on your journey.
@ William.
I like your list. But doesn’t it give the impression that the common line connecting all indicates there is an apex, a like likelihood of an original truth or closest clue to that?
@Globagoldira
The endowment is nothing else other than getting you to swear full commitment to the Church. It’s directly borrowed masonic secret binding rituals. Back then without Internet it flourished. Because you will be told never to even discuss with fellow members beyond the temple walls, lest the destroying angel kills you in a gruesome manner. It will also make you a literal slave to your husband, not by choice. . It’s a hypnotically engineered program. I discorvered the truth having gone through all. Honestly i found it hard to believe but it’s the truth. Research it well. It’s a major reason some just can’t quit – fear of the destroying angel. Personally, i took it as a museum visit. It worked.
@William: Wow dude, you are scaring the pants off me!!!!!! I don’t want to leave the Mormon church, I don’t want to be shunned, and I’ve only written articles on my positive things with being Mormon! I don’t think this discussion forum is going to hurt me too much, I already told some people I write on this forum, but I never put down the church, or tried to steer into breaking my silence. There is no silence to break. Once I get my endowment, then I will be very silent. I am only having one problem with this religion, and I’ve said it from the very start: I feel the congregation I am with “does not get me” and I’ve been told by others in that congregation the same thing. But then others say don’t worry, don’t fret, and I still fret, so i thought voicing my qualms on this site without smearing anything but my ignorance to the way of the Church. Most of what I wrote and said may be written out of ignorance and own view of how to get grip on being Mormon. If you read my comments over, you will see I have broken NO LAWS. I do not worship Joseph Smith. Just thanking him and admiring him for bringing it all to our attention, and that was is purpose. I am going to hope that my congregation will not do the things you said above. It’s not so fire and brimstone William. I’m always honest about myself. I’ve mentioned many things to the Missionaries and teachers about my ways and things I do on the net and articles I have written, and they don’t seem that upset, they find it almost comical, and so me! I am am a one mold woman. Meaning the mold was broken when God created me. I’ve always been a public person, but when it comes to certain things in being a Mormon, I speak not of them to you. There’s been a lot that has happened that has been good and brought tears to my eyes. Actually, William the only problem I am having is the Congregation not being as friendly as I had thought or maybe soon in the future when the DO GET ME, I will be embraced. It’s not like everyone is doing it, just most of them. But I am told that is normal. It’s a special ward, not like any other, and the hardest of all to be accepted in, so I am trying, and not trying to say bad. I keep quiet when I have to. But not here!!!! This forum is helping me make my decisions and see other angles and I know that I did the right thing in joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And I plan on telling the missionaries and teachers that I have that I have been writing on this website, and I’m sure they will not approve of it generally, and may even not like what I’ve said, but they will surely tell me to stop writing on here and move on, and I will. But until they do, and until I smear anything, or knowingly do something to piss them off (which I have not) then I will go. But in the meantime, discussion sanely and honestly is good. I will learn what’s right and not right. I have a feeling that in a lot of ways in what you say (if they read this) I may get more shunned or whatever it is I feel is happening. But I have to also say i got my calling, and will perform the duty, and I will do my best to stay in the ramifications of the church. I still don’t know everything about this choice. I am just glad to at least be Mormon. They can excommunicate me for not putting the church down, or ignorance, they can only do good to make me better. I know it. Bless you William, but I do not believe what you say about Joseph being a fraud, and all that sexual mish mash. It’s kind of silly, maybe as silly as me thinking the congregation is shunning me. I was told I would start to fee that as I progressed with it. I am not going to give up on my ward. But thank you for your kindness and open heart to tell me a warning … I just want stay Mormon.
@Globalgoldira — I am sure the LDS church fills some type of void for you…so great, enjoy the fantasy while it lasts.
As I have read through your responses, it all again reminds me of a statement by Carl Sagan: “You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe.” In spite of all the actual deductive evidence that validates all that I have iterated to you…instead, you would prefer to go with a “feeling” and following inductive full suspension of all forms of reason to hold fast to your belief. Therefore, as I said before, knock-yourself-out and enjoy it while it lasts…being comfortable in your ignorance and in spite of the irrefutable facts.
And for anyone else that might read these threads…yes, irrefutable facts that Joseph Smith was a fraud, a womanizer, a philanderer, a plagiarist and a Machiavellian power monger.
Now SamCantbeFooled, I have to say that once I get in the temple and get my endowment I don’t plan on coming back here to spew what happened. I would not say a single word of it. I have already been told, but thanks for explaining. i knew already it was Masonic, I’m no dummy. It’s okay that in my learning curve here, I can reach out for answers, and I’ve got my answers. The angel will never darken my doorway once I get that endowment, all bets are off, I’m in and claiming whatever you said above I have to. And I will not break that. But in the meantime, all I am is a lowly novice who is trying to learn, not be swayed. I’ve been baptized for almost a year, and in that time I’ve had some doubt, but then something wonderful happens to me and I don’t doubt. Now I’m getting closer to the next phase so of course I’m having fears and thinking I’m being shunned. I don’t think that anymore. In fact, I take it all back, I DON’ T FEEL it like that. I understand what is happening. And if anyone from my ward reads this, you know who I am, and you know I mean what I say about being Mormon and staying that way. Maybe they found this, maybe not, but I will be judged, I always knew it. But in the end I shall through God, show anyone, even if they find this forum, which I am sure they have, I am saying that I love them all, and eventually they will come and I will feel better. I’m such a NEWBIE, of course I feel feelings of doubt of myself. I’m not following things exactly like I should, I’m un educated on being Mormon, but will get better. I am now understanding. Thanks William and Sam. Thanks.! I am clear now. i am moving ahead. HEAR ME CONGREGATION of my ward, I AM MORMON AND STAYING THAT WAY! Love you all, love being Mormon. Love God! Thanks J. Smith for bringing things clearer and Thanks William and Sam.
@SamCantbeFooled — No! Sometimes, without studying these ancient mythological tales, some people draw the erroneous conclusion that all of these different themes were intended to forecast the “coming” of a Christ figure; however, if you inspect the respective tales you will quickly discover that they were NOT precursors. Instead, they are all variants of the exact same story (e.g., born of a virgin, started preaching at 30, had 12 special followers, killed and or crucified, arose on the third day, etc., etc., etc.). The story of Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt is an almost exact to the story found in the Four Gospels (pre-dating Christianity by 2000 to 3000 years…along with a mix from Krishna of India and Mithra of Persia. Therefore showing that sometime between 1 to 200 AD, the story was PLAGARIZED from these earlier story’s, mixing in a Judeo theme and thus, the JC version of the same mystical tale was born.
My primary point here is that there was not ever a JC in the biblical sense and there is no historical proof that he ever existed. Even the early Catholic bishops acknowledged that the story of Jesus was a fabrication and the historical records validate this over and over again. In fact, the Four-gospel version of Christ was created many years after the Apostle Paul ever existed.
So, for the Mormon’s to claim they have the only true or the most true and living version of Christ’s church is a lie, the claims made by Joseph Smith are all a fraud (though I am sure in his mind “he” thought it was true – or fooled himself into believing it) and the perpetuation of this and all other Christian religions is a scam that I wish everyone could wake up to see…that is, if they could simply un-suspend their disbelief just long enough to see that it is all a man-made scam.
On your comments to Globalgoldira — you are correct regarding the endowment and temple ceremony. Again, all plagiarized by Joseph Smith from his early days as a Mason. It is an old human fact that if you can wrap people up in ritualistic and secretive routines, they will be more likely to fall for the ruse…of course Mormon’s will say it is “sacred” and the holiest of ceremony’s. If it was a truly divine, restored from the past and or revealed process…then the LDS church would not have changed the ceremony as many times as it has since its inception in the mid-1800’s. Again, just all part of a very elaborate fraud.
@William & @lgaj “I am as angry about the historical cover up and whitewashing. However if the church authorities came completely clean, there would be such massive defections of members that the church would be bankrupt shortly. There would be empty temples and church meeting houses and no missionaries. Rather than push the church off a cliff, the GA’s are lowering it by rope. I am 61 and dying so it doesn’t matter that much to me except that having a faith crisis while suffering a painful death is to me an unpardonable sin committed by the only true and living church. However all the children that we raised and grandchildren will have to eventually suffer through lowering of the rope. Good is not enough for future generations to put up with all the nonsense being a member entails. It only proves to me there is no God. Which things I never would have supposed.”
I feel badly for you, that you are dying at such a young age, 61! What is it that you want them to come clean on, you were a bit muddy in that area. Like a grey area, I’m not getting where your anger is coming from. I’m glad for this site, because I am learning more about my religion, and no matter what you NON BELIEVERS say, it’s all coming from anger and atheist beliefs which has not bearing on my Church, or being a Mormon. You rant and rant about there being no God, maybe your minds are not open to it. Maybe being Mormon is just so out of the box for you guys that you think it’s a fraud. It is NOT a fraud! In fact, it’s the best thing that has happened to me in many years! E.G. I get a call from my mentor, who works at a big movie studio and he cannot find a musician for an event coming up. So I’m called, and before I can say Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I’m on the phone with old pals (still recalling their numbers) and asking them if they knew of such a person. I also placed an ad online and already have 2 lined up for the mentor. The Church teachings that you say are fraud, have made me want to do well, I wanted the strictness and the mystery and the connection of the Book of the Dead, and all of that stuff. I like how the elders where white and black, I like how they made a cool musical play about it, I like how I am in a very special ward geared toward the entertainment business, and I like how I’m thinking lately. I’ll admit I did cry on here about how the congregation at my ward didn’t “GET ME”, well I said, “SOOOOOON they WILLLLLLLLLLL get me,”: so now I’m getting to prove myself. I’ve also been picked to help with another event and have already done my homework. I can’t wait. I’m curious to see how this musician thing works out. We’ll see, I pray better, feel better and now understand why negative things happen, and then the blessings come. AND THEY HAVE come, both neg and pos, mostly pos! Thanks for your thoughts and thanks for sharing. Continue this, I love it. I know where I am and where I stand (the man on TV just said the word “STAND” as I typed it) so that says it all …
@Globalgoldira — All I can say is that you are feeling the connection and power of the human spirit whose power is universal … and (sadly)thinking it is god or the LDS church is an illusion.
I can also tell that you do not really absorb the things that I have shared with you, all of which is documented fact — and it is not made up hate speech and or a disgruntled spewing of a former member. Yet, if you chose the joy of a living a lie then you must juxtapose it against the pain of discovering the truth.
You appear to be happy and, as I have stated before, sometimes ignorance is bliss…so, please enjoy your happiness while it lasts. Just be forewarned that when the bubble bursts for you, that the fall will be hard.
@Globalgoldira
I have been reading through ur comments. You once told Bright he wasn’t bright enough, eveb though his eexpression of opinion never made such direct statement to you. Who is angry here? Many have been through where you are now, and probably, will be. But it’s not about telling you to quit Mormonism. No. Its about truth and how you cchoose to use it. A belief system keeps rising as others die. Its all good. But for what i for example came to discover, that i was told sweetened facts to get me baptised, and on dicovering what history has proven, its like having a blood oath with a lover who came to you with total lies. It hurts, if not more. True worshippers worship in spirit and truth, not just what you choose to believe, but what the truth actually is. Believing a lie never turns it into truth. Some still believe humans live on the sun and moon. Its normal, and all good for our progression.
All I was trying to say here is that the congregation at my ward never CALLS me, never INVITES me to their homes, there is no social activities. I did help on two events, and when those events ended, no one paid any attention to me, nor spoke to me or called me afterwards. Also, the missionaries got very strange when by chance they showed up on a day i did not expect them. I did not answer the door, nor phone, and they even climbed over my fence and screamed my name in the street! Why? I don’t know. Both of them are gone now. Also, I’m thinking about leaving not because of the beliefs, but because of the congregation, PERIOD! The congregation turned out to be so far from me. At the events, no one talked to me, I got no credit, and the man who I thought was in my corner suddenly disappeared. I have no close ties there, no one seems to dig me. I am totally upset and depressed. If only they’d accept me. Call me, invite me out, be my friend, but No, now I have no friends. I am alone all the time. I am sad and I am down. But I love God and J.C. What can I do?
@globalgoldira — That should be a SIGN to you that it is time to leave this “clickish” organization that, as you should know by now, is NOT true. In the mythological works you call the scriptures, the mystic JC told that the way people would “know” his followers was by their “love” they showed “one to another” — isn’t that a sign to you, at least based on what you have written?
Regardless of which branch, ward or stake that you attend (or any other Mormon / LDS congregation) you will be treated exactly the same; because you do not fit “their” model of an ideal Mormon. You can forget ever getting a temple recommend and entering their secret houses that they classify as scared places for eternal salvation (via their works for the dead).
The Mormon’s have an ideal model for the perfect Molly Mormon…and, based on your series of responses, I would deem that you are not fitting into the cookie-cutter ideal LDS woman model. The Relief Society group obviously are estranged to you, the Young Women and Primary are uncomfortable with you being a teacher…the Visiting Teachers are weirded-out by your stories and the Home Teachers are uncomfortable being seen entering your home.
I am sorry that I am not painting a very positive picture for you…but this is much more common than you would realize and it is in the top five concerns of Mormon leadership on why people leave the LDS Church, that reason being: The members drive people away!
Your story is heard and similar stories have been shared with the LDS corporate officers many times; however, when there is not a god or JC in place that is truly guiding and governing the church (as the Corporation of the First Presidency would like the world to believe)…well, you can’t control a human ran, human guided, clickish organization that DOES NOT like outsiders (in-spite of what they try to tell the world).
My suggestion to you is to leave, find what makes you truly happy and then you will have found your bliss.
[I am stating all of the above as having been a member for over 40 years, served a mission, held leadership roles, was married in the temple and did all the other card-punching Mormon things. In other words, I am speaking from an “in the know” position (though I have since left it al to find my own personal happiness). It is sad how Mormons treat people and sadder at how many good people they drive away and or that are driven to suicide…another reason why more Mormon women are on antidepressant medications than any other group.]
I wish you all the best and hope you can find what truly brings you a sense of fulfillment and happiness in your life.
OMG, you were right William! I should have listened, but I thought I was doing all the right things. All you said is true. That’s exactly the way they’ve been treating me, especially at the Halloween event when that couple could not find their silver ladle, and I got the impression they thought I stole it. They have driven me away, yes, even the Relief Society, and the teachers, etc. that you mention. All stopped calling and all disappeared. I’m so sad about it. Now I don’t have any friends and am too ashamed to tell anyone that this happened. I was getting ready for church this morning when I got hit by a brick, and decided William is right, this is wrong for me. So I called the missionaries, and told them a big fat lie that I was going back east for a few months, and by the time I supposedly come back, they probably won’t call me, or inquire, hey? Will they still try to contact me, if i told them that I was leaving today on a flight to NY? Will they just stop all communications now? Or will they continue to be phony with me. I think a bit of both, but I won’t go back. Is that how others get away without having to face them and say the lie. I said, “I’m leaving to take care of my sick brother in NY!” The missionaries brought me a gift in a Victoria Secret’s bag, which was very strange in itself. It was candy. I tried so hard to fit in. I was really getting in to the doctrines of that church. I found it interesting. And my relationship with God was better. I had a lot figured out as to why and what is with me. But, well, the congregation again! Why would they do that? If I was studying, and not doing bad, paying tidings, etc. Volunteering, etc. But then it hit me like a brick wall last week. THEY DON’T LIKE ME. They don’t want me. I am depressed, and sad. But not to commit suicide, but I can see how someone like me would do that. My whole life has been so filled with bullies and bad folks making fun of me, and I have strange fingers, strange ideas. I took down all the nice articles I wrote about being Mormon too. I could feel it in my heart, that they didn’t want me. They were all looking at me like I was some monster. Especially the ladies at the church. When I went to the planning meeting, no one looked at me, they were all dressed down in jeans and such. And when we went to the Conference, no one offered to take me, so the missionaries felt bad and took the bus with me in 100 degree weather and sat with me. But later I noticed they brought this lady with them to the monthly meal I cooked them and she hid her meal in a napkin. After that the list never came back my way, so I got that message from R.S. ladies. Why William, why? It’s a neat religion. I had not even gotten close to talking endowment. I just paid my tidings, got my lessons, went to church, and tried to be quiet, but things started to happen to me that were just strange and I thought they were visions. You are right, they didn’t like it. They didn’t like me. End of story. Thanks. This is not the first time this has happened to me. It also happened with a Lutheran church and a Christian Fellowship. Same deal, same shunning, for my ideas and stories which are true and good. But they could not handle it. Thanks again for your honesty and I am sorry if I insulted you and made a fool of myself. I still have God and my cat.
Whoops William, I meant “…in my HAT!” Not Cat.
I have been a Mormon all my life. Elders Quorum Secretary, Sealed in the temple, Scout Master, Honorable Return Missionary, Eagle Scout… I have never smoked nor drank nor want to, and I do not have a problem with porn nor want to cheat on my wife.
I left because I studied the history of the Church. I studied all approved Chruch articles and essays… Essays which are hidden in LDS.Org website.
Reasons:
1. The changes in the original version of the Joseph Smith first vision. His original written account.
2. The changes in the D&C and Book of Mormon from it’s original version.
3. Joseph Smith and Polyandry. Poligamy doesn’t bother me, but marrying woman whom were already married to his apposals.
4. The original acct of the B of M is that Jesus and God are one – 1835 version.
5. The Curse of Cain. Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to blacks and Brigham Young took it away.
You have to study people, and you can find in all LDS Church discourses by Brigham Young that the church is false. Brigham Young was an evil man.
I was able to hack it in the LDS Church. I just am too intelligent and studied to find the truth. How dare you say we left because we are wanting to sin or want to cheat on our wives. I actually feel sorry for your wife you stupid little man!
Not to mention…steel and iron (as in refined weapons), oxen and domesticated animals (flocks) etc that are clearly referenced in the Book of Mormon – all of which did NOT exist in the Western Hemisphere prior to 1492, and which is proven and verified fact…Joseph Smith also prophesied that Native Americans were decendents of the Lamanites, which we know for a fact now through DNA – that they are decendents of Asia! Also DNA testing has completely ruled out any Jewish tribe or Jewish connection to any indigenous peoples of South, Central or North America. The Battle Of Cumorah, where thousands died, and to where the Church states there is another “Cumorah” other than the hill in New York, which is located in Central America, have produced zero relics and/or bones etc – nothing. The facts are in the written words Kyle mentions, in Joseph Smith’s personal diaries – and further – you just have to dig in and read what they wrote. And yes Bringham Young was twisted – he wrote more than once that you could not attain the celestial kingdom without being a polygamist – his words!? A prophet’s words!? He also believed that there were people that lived on the moon and the sun – and that they need to be ministered to. His words!! Read and research people!!
A lot of the women are like that, trust me I know how you feel!! I’m a tattooed woman…I’m sure that doesn’t help, but if a man has tattoos they’ll talk to him! Plus I’m not very lady like, tomboy I guess lol.. But I still love making new friends and would never treat or ignore people like they have to me… I’m the type of person that if you smile or say hi to me, we are automatically friends…
What do you all think about Joseph Smith using a rock in a hat to translate the Golden Plates??? Or how Brigham Young took the Priesthood away from blacks. We have false profits in the church which has caused me to leave…
The church hides too much. Study the history people and the history is within the church itself and is true not lies from anti-mormons. The best website is Mormonthink.com…. I left because of the history and I do not want to cheat on my wife, nor do I drink, nor do drugs, and was never offended. I served a mission honorably. You think stepping out of the church, with your entire family being Mormon is easy. It’s easier to stay in the church.
Best answer to why Mormons Leave the Church…
http://youtu.be/_nMadctXvMg
Dieter Uchtdorf, Mormon Leader, Says Church Has ‘Made Mistakes’ And There Is Room For All In LDS Faith
Peggy Fletcher Stack Salt Lake Tribune 10/08/13 08:05 AM ET
SALT LAKE CITY (RNS) It is wrong to assume that Mormons who leave the faith “have been offended or lazy or sinful,” a top leader told members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on Saturday (Oct. 5) during the church’s 183rd Semiannual General Conference.
“It is not that simple,” said Dieter F. Uchtdorf, second counselor in the LDS Church’s governing three-man First Presidency.
Some struggle with “unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past,” Uchtdorf explained. “We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of church history — along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable and divine events — there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.”
“To be perfectly frank,” Uchtdorf said, “there have been times when members or leaders in the church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles or doctrine.”
God is perfect and his doctrine is pure, he said, but human beings — including church leaders — are not.
The German-born Uchtdorf, dubbed by several Mormon commenters as “our Pope Francis,” urged those who have left the LDS faith to come back, even with their doubts.
“It’s natural to have questions — the acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding,” he said. “There are few members of the church who, at one time or another, have not wrestled with serious or sensitive questions.”
Regardless of one’s circumstances, personal history or strength of faith, he said, “there is room for you in this church.”
It’s all right here, by far the best laid out of facts and comparisons EVER! Researched and completed by a lifetime member…All data pulled from leaders and Church doctrine, writings etc. After you read through this comprehensive list, you CANNOT deny the facts – and that Joseph Smith was simply NOT a prophet whatsoever!!
http://cesletter.com/Letter-to-a-CES-Director.pdf
Dieter Uchtdorf was born in the old Czechoslovakia.
I don’t think many can read Book of Mormon or Book of Abraham and not see the symbolism of it, you cannot read these church doctrines like the Bible is read. Most of what is said has to be really pulled out between the lines of what Joseph was translating and writing and calling doctrine. I feel you have to read it as if you are reading it with a “third eye”, which is the way I am reading it. I see the Egyptian drawings and recognized them from The Egyptian Book of the Dead and although they are how to bury a rich priest, when Abraham got a hold of it, he re translated it, then Joseph translated it, not to total perfection, but enough for us (me) to even have my own translations of what it is, now that we are reading it in the 21st Century. If Joseph had lived in our time he would have had the same translations as I have found through my study. I have worked out my biggest problem with being with the LDS church, I have taken William’s letter and shown my teachers there, they were shocked, but were familiar with the term Molly Mormon! They all had a lot to say about what was said in William’s letter to me when I lamented that the congregation didn’t “get” me. I wanted to print on letter in particular that is from a very important person in the congregation, it has bolstered my faith. But I thank William for helping me see the true light of being Molly Mormon! I’m not going to print the letter just yet though. But I will.
@globalgoldira — As I read your posts I see, more than anything else, a cry for help and or sympathy and, more importantly, acceptance by a group that clearly does not really want you; unfortunately, you will only receive “token” assistance and or attention from Mormon groups (for all the reasons I have already told you). Sure, the members might provide you some temporary attention because the bishop / elders quorum president / Relief Society president told them to do it; however, they will not show up out of true charity of their hearts — it is only because they “think” their salvation depends on it (and only for that reason).
When it comes to your love of Joseph Smith and his writings…all I can say is that you are not the only woman to feel that way. He knew how to Wow women and, even after his death, he still does (just read his true history to understand that). The reasons for Joseph’s success with his writings is that, as many of the best con-artists / frauds / scammers can do is, he was able to mix just enough truth in with his fraudulent “translations” to fool many people. I am sure that your “third-eye” is seeing some of the truth and it is blinding you to the over-all fraud committed by Joseph Smith and his inner-circle. Bottom line, the books have been proven as frauds and even the Mormon Church has admitted to the questionable history of the Book of Abraham, just asking everyone to accept it anyway. The Book of Mormon has been proven a fraud and ALL of the so-called prophets from Joseph Smith to present have attempted to convince everyone that the American Indians are descended from Middle-Eastern peoples; however, DNA testing has 100% disproven that too…beyond all of the archeological and anthropological evidence that has completely shown the BofM to be a fraud.
I can see your strong desire to belong…but I would encourage you to move on to something that is more fulfilling. As I stated before, unless you are “eternal wife” material and fit the both the men’s & women’s concept of a Molly Mormon, they will not ever accept you. Since the first step (for you) is to accept that if you want to achieve the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom, you MUST be willing to be forever barefoot and pregnant….otherwise, in their minds (though they would not say it) there is NO need for you and they WILL NOT waste much time on you.
All the best to you in your search for happiness and eternal bliss.
@William: I read your reply, and that’s all I really want anyways, a little attention, I knew telling them about your post to me would put a bit of fire under their feet, it’s okay, I got lots of calls from other Molly Mormon’s like myself from that church, and it felt good. At least they DID call, they DID respond to me when I became very upset over your post to me. It’s okay, they found your post very amusing and my home teacher was laughing at some it is, especially when you used the term “Molly Mormon”. Maybe you are right, but I also have control over how much I really want to be involved with the congregation now. I had to tell them, show them, to see what they’d do, and they did get off their butts and answer the accusations in your post about them. I find that doing this shows me the real truth. You are right about a lot of things, but I know they DO need me for more than being barefoot and pregnant, i do have a joyous way about me that may be lacking in that Church I attend. Maybe it’s meant for all this to happen, I DO NOT pray to Joseph Smith, I pray to GOD! So I have to say that since I started with this, without being a Molly Mormon, I have gotten much closer to God and Jesus. I really found what I wanted. And if what you say is true, then there is NOTHING I can do about it but continue to go to church, go to class, and play the same game at the Relief Society Meetings, if what you say about how they think of me is true even though you do not know them! We’ll see. I’ll keep in touch. I’m going forward, and will stay with this church until I see for myself that more of what you say about them is true. I don’t worship Joseph Smith. Who cares what it says if it brings me closer to God. I did my thesis on The Book of the Dead, so i feel a closeness to it. So that’s that. We will see if they continue to treat me the way I said and felt, and the way you said of me being a NON MOLLY MORMON! Thanks again for your time. I’m sure we will be in touch. I’m not saying you are wrong, I am just trying to learn.
@William, you were right. They don’t want me. I could tell today when we went to a big conference. This girl and her hubby and child took me, picked me up early and sat me by the exit, and as soon as it was over, we were out the door and in the car and gone! I felt snubbed by so many. So many I knew were dilibertly ignoring me, I could feel the vibes. I’m too much of a coo coo bird, as I first thought, for them to accept. You were more than half right, I don’t fit in. Missionaries stopped calling, people stopped, and my teachers were very stiff and fake with me. Especially the one guy saying you were the bitter one Michael. No it’s them. Not me, or you. It’ them. I’m leaving the church, slyly of course. I will tell them a lie, and just live by it, and by the time my time is up to come back, I’ll not come back and they won’t care or ever contact me again. They know I was a mistake right? I know it. Don’t lie, you have not so far, only they have lied. Not one person from my ward said hi, waved or even smiled, and I saw them. I felt rooted to the spot. I am such a looser to them. I am not a looser, but am one as long as I stay there. So I get whisked out the door and home, and I decide to run errands, I ride bus up to somewhere, then back. I’m coming toward the last bus and there’s this old woman from the church who also was bapitized with me. She was alllll dressed up and said, “Where were you?” I said I was there, were you? She aid (lied) NO, I was not there. But think she was and just hung around talking to everyone whereas I was whisked away. I’m sure others talked about me like “Did you see her trying to get my attention, I felt so badly I had to do that to her!” I felt it. I could smell a rat in the air. Not for God, or Jesus, not even Joseph. I will continue to study that one doctrine I love and not return to the church. I think my hubby agrees. You were right. I feel that old woman was at the bus stop for a reason god showing me what’s what. Right? OK so you are right. Please responsd.
@globalgoldira — Sorry that they treated you as they did and, without sounding as if I am saying “I told you so”…I did warn you.
Mormons try to appear and act as if they are one big huge Christian brotherhood & sisterhood; however, that is ONLY if people fit into a specific type or mold (e.g., Holy Joe, Molly Mormon, etc.). If anyone does not fit their version of what a good Mormon should look like or act like; well, you just don’t fit into the click.
Just remember the LDS church is not true, Joseph Smith was not a prophet and that the Mormon organization is man-made, just as all other churches in the world are.
So don’t feel bad, don’t be sad and don’t lie to them about why you are leaving…simply stop going and, if they do contact you, tell them you are no longer interested.
Best of luck in your journey.
I know we’ve spoken about all this before @William, but now I can verily say to you that it’s over now, they got rid of me just like you said. I knew in the back of my mind that they didn’t like me, and I figure that a lot of them probably began complaining to me to the upper level folks at the Church and after awhile they all started to shun me. That is the only reason I can think of why they all of a sudden did this to me. No one has called, only a few emails from my visiting teacher feeling guilty. I realize it all now. What it is that turned them from me. My spirit of the Lord and God is very high and I can take a church doctrine and really tear it apart and see what it says, and I had some very interesting ideas, also, maybe in class I did talk a lot, but it was with the lady who has dementia and maybe she saw it as “trouble” and with that disease you forget who your friends are or that you may have just been joking, so that’s how it began. But it spread so much that people (theory?) started to lightly complain about my ways to maybe the Bishop, so maybe the bishop felt bad, and got the second in command to give me some meaningless task, a calling, but by the time they gave me that, they pulled me out of class, after chapel, and I missed a lot of class and Relief Society stuff, so maybe they did that on purpose to get me away from the congregation, on the request of the congregation. As I progressed from there, it got worse, and lots of folks were shunning me, I could feel it. Some woman even had the gall to call me on the phone and say, “I won’t be coming up to you at the event this weekend, I just don’t want to, but didn’t want to hurt your feelings!” Bullshit! It’s not the religion I am upset with, nor God himself, it’s the congregation, and how phony they became, ever so slowly. Okay? So what do I do now, can you help me deal with the crushing blow of rejection????? Can you stop me from thinking what a fucking loser I feel like now? What would you do, go out and get smashed on booze? Or go to the temple of the devil? I don’t think so! I’m never going back, no matter what they try, and they won’t try a thing, I now know.I’m ahead of them though, I defriended them all on Facebook, and wrote messages to the missionaries that wanted to try and help me and said “Live your life and leave me alone now, it is finished!” Now they will try and get to my husband, whom I also defriended. He’s been rejecting me for months and it has to do with this Church failure. My failure. He’s just not in my corner anymore, and frankly I see a separation soon. But I’ll say this, I will NEVER go to another church again. I’m done. I love God, Jesus, and the earth, but the people on it SUCK! Thanks for your time. Good luck to you, but feel free to respond to this, but try not to gloat too much that you did open my eyes wide. Peace.
@globalgoldira — Please understand that I do not feel proud about “knowing” something is not true nor do I ever “gloat” over pointing out facts to anyway. I am just glad when anyone’s eyes of understanding are opened and they are able to see the truth; regardless of how painful or cathartic that process might be — because it is the knowledge and knowing of truth that sets us all free and reduces the ability of others to exercise control over those without this knowledge.
To me, all religions in and throughout the world, they all are guilty of exploiting peoples lack of knowledge and using that as a form of control, profit making and ultimately (due to the mass amount of peoples being tricked and others accepting of these religious belief systems as fact-based due to their length of existence) that religious leaders manipulate their followers into performing harmful and despicable acts…and, of course, these people are without guilt since they are either on a mission from god or they have sinned because the devil made them do it; therefore, thinking that they can assuage any feeling of guilt because it really wasn’t them (themselves) committing the atrocious acts (‘..god or the devil made me do it..!’).
The reason that I say much of what I have is that I know it is ALL a bunch of BS! You have made the first real step…but, you still mistakenly think or feel that the powers of the universe come from god or his bastard mystical son — has this experience not taught you that it is all a bunch of bologna? Speaking of religion, in any form, I think that the late Christopher Hitchens stated it best when he said: “I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful.” Granted there are times when some people have performed true major acts of human kindness in the name of their mythological gods; but, you must admit that the extent of horrific things done in the names of those same mystical gods darkens the historical record from the beginning of recorded time to the present (just turn on the news).
You have most likely realized that I am an atheist that sometimes borders on anti-theism…but I do not feel I am quite in the same vein as the “new atheists”, such as Richard Dawkins, Reza Aslan and Sam Harris (to point to a few) — whom have said things about religion such as: “[it is] one of the world’s great evils”. They say often that religion is as bad as smallpox and worse than rape and that religion is a form of child abuse; that it is “violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children” — much of which, from a historical perspective, is true about all forms of religion.
So, why did I say all that I did above, so that you would realize that my views are not only about Mormons, my views are the same towards all religions and the beliefs in mystical deities and reverence for beings that DO NOT exist. Religionists (Joseph Smith included) devise some of the most sophisticated scams and forms of fraud that cause both simple minded and educated people to consider them as real — and why is that? A scammer / huckster / griffter / etc…can spot a weak soled person from a mile away. These scam artists will strike at the heart of these people’s weakest points and, voilà they have hooked another looser! Even Mormon missionaries are trained at doing this without realizing they were trained to do it — they go to the Missionary Training Center (MTC) to learn how to teach, all the while they are really being trained on how to get people to buy into BS …hook, line and sinker..!
I am truly sorry for any pain that your experience has caused you and, for a while, it will tug at your spirit and pull at your heart strings…but, in the long run, you know in your heart you will be stronger for it and come out on the better side as you continue to look for your happiness on the path to finding bliss. All the best in your journey!
@Michael Mormon who runs website for doubting members ousted
Associated Press
BRADY McCOMBS
February 10, 2015
SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — A Mormon man who gained notoriety over the past decade for running a website that offers doubting Latter-day Saints a forum to chat has been kicked out of the religion.
John Dehlin announced the decision from regional church leaders Tuesday. He becomes the second high-profile church member to be excommunicated in the past year in what Mormon scholars consider to be the Utah-based faith’s way of keeping dissenters in line.
A regional church leader in North Logan told Dehlin in a letter that Mormon officials made a unanimous decision to excommunicate him for apostasy, defined by the church as repeatedly acting in clear public opposition to the faith.
While not a lifelong ban, excommunication is still a rare move that amounts to the harshest punishment available for a church member.
The letter from Bryan King says Dehlin is being kicked out not because he doubted and asked questions about church doctrine, but because he made categorical statements opposing the faith that were disseminated on his website. King wrote that Dehlin’s actions have led others to leave the faith.
“I acknowledge your right to criticize the church and its doctrines and to try to persuade others to your cause,” King writes. “But you do not have the right to remain a member of the church in good standing while openly and publicly trying to convince others that church teachings are in error.”
The decision comes two days after Dehlin met with church leaders in a four-hour disciplinary hearing.
Dehlin, 45, hoped he wouldn’t be excommunicated but told church leaders he could not in good conscience stop operating his website, Mormonstories.org.
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints spokesman Eric Hawkins said in an email that the church might comment later. Church leaders have not publically discussed the specifics of Dehlin’s case.
The move is likely to send ripples through the Mormon community. It comes on the heels of the June ouster of Kate Kelly, founder of a group pushing for women to be allowed in the religion’s lay clergy.
Scholars say Kelly and Dehlin are the most high-profile examples of excommunication proceedings since 1993. That year, the church disciplined six Mormon writers who questioned church doctrine, ousting five and kicking out a sixth temporarily.
To supporters, Dehlin is a hero who has risked his standing in the faith to create a much-needed forum where church members could openly discuss sensitive or controversial issues about the faith. About 200 supporters held a vigil for Dehlin on Sunday night outside the church building where his disciplinary hearing took place.
To his detractors, Dehlin is a Latter-day Saint who long stopped believing in the faith’s core tenets and has orchestrated and manipulated his situation to be ousted and earn more attention.
“Dehlin’s choices forced his local leaders to take steps to protect their adherents from one who not only ceased to believe, but who actively sought to have others embrace his disbelief,” said Scott Gordon, co-founder of MormonVoices, an organization that supports the LDS church.
Dehlin is a married father of four who has been a Latter-day Saint his entire life. He is a doctoral candidate in psychology who previously worked in the high-tech industry.
@William, you were right. They don’t want me. I could tell today when we went to a big conference. This girl and her hubby and child took me, picked me up early and sat me by the exit, and as soon as it was over, we were out the door and in the car and gone! I felt snubbed by so many. So many I knew were dilibertly ignoring me, I could feel the vibes. I’m too much of a coo coo bird, as I first thought, for them to accept. You were more than half right, I don’t fit in. Missionaries stopped calling, people stopped, and my teachers were very stiff and fake with me. Especially the one guy saying you were the bitter one Michael. No it’s them. Not me, or you. It’ them. I’m leaving the church, slyly of course. I will tell them a lie, and just live by it, and by the time my time is up to come back, I’ll not come back and they won’t care or ever contact me again. They know I was a mistake right? I know it. Don’t lie, you have not so far, only they have lied. Not one person from my ward said hi, waved or even smiled, and I saw them. I felt rooted to the spot. I am such a looser to them. I am not a looser, but am one as long as I stay there. So I get whisked out the door and home, and I decide to run errands, I ride bus up to somewhere, then back. I’m coming toward the last bus and there’s this old woman from the church who also was bapitized with me. She was alllll dressed up and said, “Where were you?” I said I was there, were you? She aid (lied) NO, I was not there. But think she was and just hung around talking to everyone whereas I was whisked away. I’m sure others talked about me like “Did you see her trying to get my attention, I felt so badly I had to do that to her!” I felt it. I could smell a rat in the air. Not for God, or Jesus, not even Joseph. I will continue to study that one doctrine I love and not return to the church. I think my hubby agrees. You were right. I feel that old woman was at the bus stop for a reason god showing me what’s what. Right? OK so you are right. Please responsd.
Very informative- however this list is not actually comprehensive–it’s just those things you could point to that make the decision to leave look appropriate for the person leaving
It’s like those internet quizzes where no matter how you answer the questions you end up looking good eg, you are the CEO! There is another list where the person did not fees their testimony and lost the spirit. Then any little thing on this list could be the excuse to leave
@laddmorgan — You are correct in the sense of that in the more modern definition of the word “comprehensive”, being that it would comprise or hold “all elements or aspects of something…” and by that definition, this site is not comprehensive. However, if you look at the definition in its more archaic form, that being: “…of or relating to understanding…” understanding in the sense of a comprehensive list of reasons that you and others (from a personal perspective) have left the Mormon church, then based on that archaic definition, this site is comprehensive.
This site has proven interesting to read and has proven to be more about what makes someone leave — which some do define their reasons as either sin based or use the cliquish Mormon way as the reason they feel driven away. It is sad that more do not comment on the fact that, through intensive study and research, they have discovered that the LDS church is not true; which was the reason that I left this church: I learned, on my own, that it was a well-conceived scam and those that are in its leadership continue to perpetuate the fraud — all of which is quite sad. Sadder in the way so many believe in it and think or feel it is true…that is the saddest part of all.
In fact my intensive research has helped me to discover that all world religions and local cults are man-made and have zero foundation in anything heavenly whatsoever. My journey of discovery has truly set me free and helped me to realize that there is no heaven above or hell below…there is no god, at least in the man-made version or interpretation (as most would know it) and has led me to being 100% atheist.
Good luck in your journey.
Well, I have to say off the cuff and in a sidebar that Michael was totally right about what would happen to me when I joined the LDS Church last year. I really loved the whole deal and the interesting mix of Jewishh and Masonic religions = Mormon! But as time went on, and the months went by, I began to relax a bit and started to involve myself in some activities like feeding missionaries, helping with events, etc. But that’s when I noticed the shunning and the fact that I was be isolated. It was stemming from the Women’s Relief Society, which I never liked anyways, but those women did exactly what Michael said they would do, and ever since I got wise to their antics I have been depressed, sad, sick and shocked over it. Only one idiot from that church now contacts me, the guy that was my main teacher, he is feeling guilt I’m sure he is. I met with Bishop and talked to him about how some lady at our ward came up to me and said, “The congregation doesn’t get you!” Then a few months later she calls me on the phone to tell me she won’t talk to me at the conference if she or I see her or me, and she wanted to call to let me know so she would not hurt my feelings. I went to the conference with my home teacher, and that was the last time I saw her, no calls, just brought me in, and rushed me out, as the whole ward seemed to be shunning and not looking my way, so i knew at that moment, it was over. As time passed since that October day, I have not returned, just emailing back and forth with the main teacher idiot. It’s not the religion of LDS I am sad over, it’s the PEOPLE in that ward. Michael warned me and I listened but forged ahead so I could find out for myself, which I did. I believe more in God now and feel so much closer to him and Jesus Christ than ever before, but unfortunately I was not liked at my ward! I am getting a negative complex of myself and have stopped enjoying things or going out. I’ve isolated myself and my own husband of 13 years is doing now what the ward did to me over a period of many months. I was not blind to it, I just ignored it until there were just too many doing it, and then now I don’t go anymore, also, I got a few calls from a few women, but I never called back. FAKE! It’s not the religion, I have gotten much learning out of the church doctrines I’ve read and are reading, but it is the people that ruined it, and the Bishop took NO ACTION against that one girl that told me all that crap. Just wanted to let you know.
I’m a member and wouldn’t leave but I do think the majority of the women I’ve met in the church are snobs..not all of them but almost all the ones I’ve come in contact with… You see them out in public and they pretend not go see you or totally avoid you… Happens all the time even though the prophets have asked us to be kind to one another… What’s weird is the men are so nice and considerate!
I attribute much of that to the church itself. They have consistently blamed the man for divorce, poverty, or unhappiness within a family. This is rarely the case. Fact is, there are very, very few good women within the church. They go for money first and foremost, followed by the desire to spend lavishly while never working themselves, followed closely by playing the role of eternal victim instead of eternal wife.
This shunning I felt had nothing to do with God, the church doctrines or the church of LDS. It had to do with the ward I was in, it was not the right one for me. I am closer to god because I was baptized the right way, in the Mormon way, I wanted to be part of it, but because I embraced BOOK OF ABRAHAM and could really read more into it than anyone in that ward of actors, producers and snot head Relief society women! They got so scared. One woman took me aside after hearing me talking about the symbols in Book of Abraham, which was God talking to me. I use Book of Abraham to get closer to God, he speaks to me through that doctrine! I love god and feel so much closer, and have kept a notebook called “LETTERS TO AND FOR GOD” and everything I’ve written in there has come true thru God. I learned earlier on in that ward how to pray to God and get what I want out of him. He in turn gets a lot out of me now too. I am studying alone, do not go to church. The Relief Society disliked me. Some of the women thought I was a bit of a ROGUE, but they were afraid I’d know more than they did. They were afraid of me. They all started to shun me, not everyone, but the important ones. Also, a girl kept coming up to me and saying “The Congregation doesn’t get you and they never will!” So i knew then. And when I went to get involved in meetings and activities I noticed it the most. My own visiting teacher shunned me as well as people I thought liked me. They moved away from me, one old woman said she was so jealous of me because I could read the scriptures and know more than most do, underlining the parts that pertained to me. She loved how I did it. I can read and get answers from God himself, and Jesus. I plan to publish my book about going through the process of being inducted, baptized, went to Mormon temple, and paid my tidings, etc, and how things declined, and through it all my relationship with God increased. He does speak to me in my subconscious mind, I feel him in my life more than ever, like he never left, and he didn’t. But I will NEVER go back to that ward, but am looking for a new one, and studying on my own. What saved me and showed me that the shunning was going on was “DOCTRINE & COVENANTS PEARL OF GREAT PRICE”. I read it every day and have learned so much more than even Joseph Smith knew. Lots of his notes on the Egyptian drawings Abraham drew were WRONG, or off, he was on the right track, but I filled in the blanks and spoke in great length with the Bishop, my teacher, some in the congregation and of course the missionaries. I learned that missionaries and elders are not cracked up to what I perceived them to be. I was hurt and ran away from the ward, not the LDS church. I love being Mormon, and one day I will find my place. In the meantime, I am close to God because of D/C’s Pearl of Great Price. I have learned much about myself through that book. I love it. Thanks for your interest. I will find my way back in.
I was a Mormon for 30 years…its a great social club but as I have read early church history before 300 AD it became obvious that Joseph Smith had no idea what the original church was like when he tried to restore it. I have found the most authenticity in the eastern orthodox church…wish I would have read Eusebius and the early church writers along time ago
@Suzanne — Actually, the early founders of the ancient churches built upon plagiarized stories taken from the following much more ancient mythical stories (just to name a few):
Krishna
Odysseus
Dionysus
Heracles
Glycon
Attis of Phrygia
Horus
So, in other words, there was not a historical Jesus and Bishop Eusebius knew that…it was a fabrication built upon mystical systems as a way of control. For Joseph Smith to create something from that just shows he was good at perpetuating the original scam or fraud.
Once you realize there was no Jesus, then it puts all the other data into perspective.
Hope you can find your truth.
Hi Suzanne. Joseph Smith realllllly did know a lot more than most back then who were trying to create religion. Fortunately Joseph was close to the land and knew things that others did not. He was a man of the land, and a metal digger. He should have been a treasure hunter, but he did restore the church in the only means he could, what he knew of God and what he heard from God. I think what he did was spectacular, and he did not make the congregation, he made the religion, and I must say that although I’m no fan of the Women’s Relief Society at my first ward, does not mean Joseph Smith didn’t know what he was doing. I love the way of LDS, I love how they worship. And although the first ward congregation “didn’t get me”, I just found another one after consulting with God for 6 months. Now I understand better. I have to keep my big mouth shut and no more TMI, and I think you Suzanne should read Doctrine & Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, which showed me so much about Joseph being on the right track. If he were in our time, he would have been a hero to all. Better read other stuff, and too much read on net mixes you up. Good luck.
@globalgoldira — Not sure where you keep digging up this crap about Joseph Smith — the man was a crook, a fraud and a pedophile. All he did was come up with a way to build upon peoples stupidity by taking the existing Christian scam and creating his own elaborate fraud based upon that scam. You do need to study this stuff out (as I have suggested to you before) instead of spouting things that are not factual.
To have a church requires a god and, there is no god or Jesus — so that makes the LDS Church just another twist on the same mystical fantasies.
@William Now now William, if you believed in a God, then you’d believe more in Joseph Smith. I had trouble this year staying at the Ward I was attending, and just left the scene, and I used a lot of these posts here to create emails that I sent myself and then showed my visiting teacher and Bishop of that ward I used to attend. They acted exactly as you said they would, but using your posts or making them seem like emails to me personally REALLY scared them at that one ward I no longer go to. I have to thank you Michael, because of you I was able to see through some rage and anger of my own. Were you molested by a Mormon? Or like me SHUNNED and abandoned by a congregation like I was? It was the evil side trying to entice you to where you are now. I am no angle, nor no scribe nor do I wear the badge of a genius but I did learn something grand about God when I started coming here and reading your posts to me. So because of coming here, I was able to actually step away from the snotty ward I was in, and move to a better with the congregation and missionaries and higher uppers not bothering with me like many said they would if I tried to leave! I was told they would not let me go, make me reconcile, but I used your posts as emails and sent them to myself and it looked like they actually came from some of the jerks from that ward I was in at first. Six or seven months passed, and we come to NOW, and I found a new ward that looks so much better. Not as big, not as rich, not as poles stuck up their asses, like at the old rich ward. So I am at peace with my decision. AND, about Joseph Smith, I find he and I have a lot of the same good qualities. You only see the bad, I see the bad of what he did, yes as a youth he was not a good guy, and he did have odd ways. But I know a few things that happened to him to even make him turn to religion even if you think it was for his own gain. Maybe 1 percent of it he may have thought for his own, since he was always made fun of for his odd beliefs. I found out that the reason Mormons marry multiple wives or did do it, was to honor and live as close like the father of the Jews ABRAHAM!!! Abe had a lot of wives and God told him to do it. So Joseph Smith’s clan decided to do that, and it’s not done anymore anyways. If it was or is, than it’s the fundalmentalists like that idiot they just made a movie about who had a bunch. I think you need to see some good things Joseph did. He saved my ass, and I was led to his book of Abraham which I love and still read every day, it’s my shield. Sorry you are so mad. But i do know this, I pray for you and thank you for continuing to write me. By the way, thanks for those gloriously raging posts you sent last year! They helped me find my way to the right ward.
globalgoldira,
I can see where you are coming from. I attend church but do so not as a religion but as a congregation working together to somehow make sense of the people around me. To be a part of something good is empowering and satisfying. However for a man such as Joseph to do the things he did and still proclaim to be of God is deplorable. What has become of the things he organized is truly amazing. The settling of the American West, one of the largest Welfare programs in the world, an organization of millions of faithful, and many other things. So the “church” does some great things whether in deceit of the members or not. The majority of the members just don’t want to know the history of the church in fear that what they have heard is true. I was there until I realized that the people are good people with or without the church. I have long believed that good people want to do good despite religion. Not everyone has to fear GOD to do good things.
I see great people doing great things that bring them happiness and ultimately life is about finding a place you can be happy as well as make others happy. Will I ever tell my neighbors, friends, bishop, wife or children that I don’t believe the doctrines of the church? Who knows but for now as long as I don’t have to lie to anyone or deceive anyone I am happy living my life like this. I don’t see making it very far though without having to tell someone. At some point I will be asked to teach a class or take on responsibility that will require me to express by beliefs and that is where I will not lie to others or myself.
To all of those shaking your heads saying I am not being true to myself all I have to say is there is no truth only what a person sees through the eyes of his own life’s experiences. Reality is only seem from one perspective no matter how hard we try to see it through another’s eyes. Where ever you find happiness stay there. Don’t stand for deception and be brave enough to step away when the consequences are a choice between your happiness or the happiness of another. If you need a GOD to be happy chose a benevolent one, if you need a savior to motivate you to continue being a better person make it a humble one, and if you need inclusion and friendship find it with those who care about who you are and not what you believe.
@globalgolderia — The pursuit of happiness and bliss is usually or should be the goal of all humans; however, when we “think” we have found what makes us happy and later discover it is built upon a lie or other dishonest foundations — is that true happiness? Or is it a perceived sense of happiness that can never really bring any sort of eventual joy (because it was a lie in the first place). That is why Mormons make no sense to me; that being, that even when they do discover what Joseph Smith was all about and the fraud he perpetuated upon his followers (made more evident by the LDS Church’s recent releasing of the truth behind the seer stones that Joseph used to commit acts of fraud)…the Mormon followership will still continue to believe in the lie because of their deep need to have something to justify their belief system. Just as Friedrich Nietzsche said: “Sometimes people don’t want to hear the truth because they don’t want their illusions destroyed…” that is how so many Christians and especially Mormons function. And, in my opinion, there is nothing more sad than people that happily live a lie due to their lack of inner strength or charisma nor a real desire to discover the truth and the courage necessary to live that truth.
I am astounded at the circles people try to navigate when giving testimony about the LDS Church. It is as empirical as this: TRUTH. There can be only one truth by definition. Joseph Smith was a con artist, charlatan and sexual predator. In order to believe Smith one would have to suspend all cognitive, critical thinking. Everything Smith did was a lie and the Church is a lie. It is morally unconscionable to lie to children and promote a religion that can easily be shown to be fraudulent.
@Dave — Excellent response and you hit the nail squarely on the head! Though I agree that is sad so many Mormon’s are not able to wake up from their slumber, I am quite confident that the reason is they are afraid to have their illusion destroyed and (even more scary for them) is they are terrified of discovery they have believed in / followed / preached a lie all of their lives. I think that Friedrich Nietzsche said it best when he stated: “Sometimes people don’t want to hear the truth because they don’t want their illusions destroyed.”
Thanks for the post!
I feel like I’m in and then I’m out, then in then out, then shunned, then new ward, then accepted as a Molly Mormon, then Joe Mormon saunters over and flirts with me, then I do my testimony and the next thing I realize is I’m not in class, but hanging with the ladies in the church library. LOL, but in the end it’s not about what or why Joseph Smith was Joseph Smith, he brought something special to others who were good people and expounded on his idea.
@globalgodira — Why are you still wasting time with this church? Joseph Smith did not do anything spectacular other than commit fraud by plagerizing stories that already existed or just by simply copying other ancient mystical stories (hence I that is why I believe you “think” the Pearl of Great Price “sounds” like it mirrors stuff found in the Book of the Dead — he just expanded on the mysticism is all). Joseph Smith was a philandering pedophile that was chased from state to state for fraud, sexual deprivity, scam operations, larceny and finally destruction of a free press, feeding upon his visions of grandure; which we was about to fulfill by building the largest army in North America (at the time) for which we was planning to use in support of his US presidential asperations. Why is it so difficult for you to see him for what he was and understand that the LDS church is a corporation only that was built upon a lie?
@William How do you know so much William. You rant and rant about Joseph Smith, and wow, nothing happens to change how I feel about him. I identify with Joseph Smith, and told you already that I know what he did wrong and right. What he did for me was bring me something to communicate with God better. Before I even knew it, in college, 35 years ago, I had Egyptian figures painted on my wall and I minored in Egyptian History and I learned so much about Book of the Dead, and when I saw what Joseph did, wrote and translated, I found myself with this gift, I pray, ask God to help me understand why this or that is happening and depending on what date it is, I go to that section. Say it was July 4th, I’d go to Section 4 of D/C and read into what it said then find my answer. It’s happened to me so many times that I use what Joseph wrote as a tool and mix it with my own history on what I know about Egyptian culture and such. SO I am able to actually translate more than what Joseph and the book itself is saying. I see the big circle as the life of Jesus Christ birth to wandering to dying on the cross to rising again in that one diagram. It’s amazing. So it’s not really being Mormon, not being Mormon, being Molly Mormon, or Joe Mormon, it’s about the understanding of what LDS Mormon means: It’s this: 1. Jewish 2. Masonic Temple and 3. Egyptian. I can see it, some call it Viking too, about Jesus being here in the Americas too. So says Book of Mormon. SO I am a bit a rogue Mormon now. I have been going to the new ward, but I do notice I am being shunned by a few. But they are hurting for congregation and the Bishop is helping me get more comfortable with the Relief Society, so I’m on my way to peace. That’s all I seek, and I love reading Mormon doctrines like D/C Pearl… I will continue to pray for you William, but even if I go to any ward, or don’t go to any ward, or don’t go to Conference, or whatever, I am with God better than I have ever felt in my half century on this earth.
@globalgoldira — Well, I guess if it makes you happy, then the fact that it is all mystical hypocrisy shouldn’t matter then. Granted, mystical belief systems have helped the simple minded peoples of the world feel good for centuries — but as factual discovery has shown and the massive lack of any tangible evidence has proven, mysticism is nothing more than peoples’ need to believe in something and using mythological justifications for living in a way that is quite obviously a lie.
If that brings you comfort (believing in a lie) then all I can say is: Be Happy…and I hope the Mormon / Christian lie brings you a sense of Joy!
I left the church today. Last night I received a little nudge from the spirit to question whether my church leaders are wrong to assign me, a recent convert, as a primary teacher which takes up time I would rather be spending in gospel principles class or whatever so I can learn and grow. I never believed the book of Mormon was true but felt that its message must surely have value. I began to read the BOM searching for an answer to the question, “What value does BOM hold for me?” After working in the BOM for about an hour I realized that not only do I not believe BOM is true, but that its message has no value at all. There is simply no meaningful life lessons in BOM that you can’t already find in the Bible. I realized the BOM was entirely unnecessary in that it did not add anything to the gospel found in the bible at all. Then I finally confessed to myself that I also don’t believe that attending the temple is necessary to get to heaven. I do not believe in the ordinances performed in the temple are necessary to seal you to your family forever. The church just wants you to think that so they can control you and make you pay tithing and be temple “worthy”. That’s when it hit me that the contract between God and man is based on agency or free-will meaning that when I make a right choice that honors God I do so because it is the right thing to do and I do it of my own free will. The LDS church robbed me of that agency, that free-will. They tell me what to think and what to believe and I must obey those orders lest I be found unworthy to receive my temple recommend. That would mean I could not be sealed to my family and live together forever with them. So I must hand over my free will to the church and blindly follow their orders. I must also depend on the bishop to decide if I am worthy of attending the temple. For the past two years, I have been out of work and am so poor I cannot pay tithing.. My family literally lives paycheck to paycheck and are often broke before payday and have to go without. The church doesn’t care about my situation at all. They insist that I pay my tithing or I I can’t be sealed to my family. So what I learned is that God has already promised he would provide for my spiritual needs. In fact, I have a God-given right to be judged only by my creator on judgement day as to whether or not he will let me into Heaven when I die. I don’t need to convince some priest that I am worthy enough to enter the sacred temple and then receive an ordinance guaranteeing me I will be with my family forever. God has already promised that my family will be together. All we have to do is live a good life and make it into Heaven and we will be together forever.. See, by allowing my fellow man to determine my so-called worthiness I am denying myself of my God-given right to be judged directly by my creator. Not only that but the priesthood itself has removed God entirely from his involvement in determining my worthiness. The priests and bishops have taken it upon themselves to act on behalf of God in all matters concerning the judgement of man. I must meet their requirements for worthiness and then beg them to perform additional ceremonies to get me and my family into heaven. That is a Godless proposition altogether, isn’t it?That’s when I realized that I don’t need to defer to the bishop to have my worthiness evaluated and I don’t need to attend the temple with its phony sessions and rituals to get into Heaven. I am taking back my agency or free-will as some call it and I am going to exercise it every time I make a right choice or do something to honor God’s glory. In the LDS church I was simply making choices out of fear of being found unworthy to attend the temple.If I follow the ridiculously long 137 or so chapters of the D&C I won’t ever need to use my own free will ever again as long as I do everything exactly the way the church says to. BUT, I don’t think God intended mankind to be separable from their agency.So today I took it back. I will never again allow my fellow man to asses my worthiness or my goodliness. I will use my agency and I will do the right thing even when I think nobody is looking just because it’s the right thing to do and I will let God judge whether or not I am worthy to get into Heaven. I will never again associate with men who usurp God’s authority to judge a man’s worth and then create false rituals to guarantee that man eternal life.I also don’t need to be sealed to my wife/kids in the temple to be with them forever. God has already promised this to me. In fact, he did so on my wedding day when I stood before him and promised to have and to hold and honor and cherish my wife in sickness and in health for the rest of my life. AND as long as I keep that promise I will be with her forever in Heaven. AND as long as my kids are good enough to get into Heaven they will be there too, forever! There is simply no need to go through a priesthood holder and the temple to receive the promises God has already given me. But by giving up my agency, I empower the church to insert itself between myself and God so that I cannot get to the lord but by them and then only if I live the way the tell me to. I’m done with the church. It’s amazing how I only pulled out one card and the whole stack just tumbled right down after it. Couple that with the fact that Joseph Smith was convicted of using seer stones to locate coins, gold and silver for fraudulent purposes 4 years prior to the date he records find the seer stones along with the BOM in the side of a hill and we have a documented case of smith falsifying his autobiography to conveniently omit his arrest and conviction for conning poor dumb locals to pay him to locate buried money on their land. He is a liar. He fabricated the BOM with the help of others and Mormonism is not a true religion. Furthermore when church leaders lie about the origins of our faith or allow a known lie to continue they forfeit their own priesthood and temple worthiness and are disqualified from using their priesthood power to judge my temple worthiness.
All you say makes sense to me except Doctrines & Covenants Pearl of Great Price! THAT BOOK HAS helped me deal with all my stress over being shunned by my ward, and with problems I have had. This is how it works: You pray to god about whatever it is bothering you, then you wait and then turn to a section that most relates to maybe your birth date (last 2 digits) or the date you are praying. I did this, I asked God: GOD, tell me why my family is so against me? I turned to a few different sections relating to my family in numbers. I turned to SECTION 31 (the age my own mom gave birth to me) and after reading it I was amazed, the answer was there as to why they were doing it. You have to take what it says and pretend God is talking only to you. ONLY D/C not BOM, which is a history book. YES, I do believe in the message of BOM, but I was shunned from two wards for talking to much about what I was seeing in D/C. So bad, I had to leave. I did. But, I know there is God and Jesus Christ but it was the PEOPLE in the ward that caused the problems, thinking I was off my rocker, being so new in the church but I was right. I’ve been referring to D/C now for 2 years, and you should see it. It’s all underlined and the messages ARE TO ME, even though in some sections they are referring to Joseph, or Elders, or whatever. I saw my message veiled in between the different paragraphs. AMAZING how much closer to God and Jesus I became when I joined LDS, but it’s the people in the congregation that didn’t “GET ME” or “ASKED ME TO DO THIS OR THAT”, but you always have your freewill, God doesn’t take it away, it’s the people who you are with that do it. So I quit going to temple, and just use D/C for my guide. And should re think D/C and try and use it to pray on whatever … What you asked. And turn to a page or section that matches your question, and read closely and much of it is veiled because the enemies and naysayers of the church will not taint it and bring you down. Most of the congregation did not like me, labeled me, and gave me stupid callings. But this D/C book is the most profound I’ve ever read and I am referring to it. Pay particular attention to BOOK OF ABRAHAM which is based on Egyptian myth, but the sketches in there are not of Abraham, it’s Jesus Christ, and they were drawn 2500 years before Jesus walked the earth, To me, that’s all I need. Forget the wards, love God, and follow D/C and start praying using that as your tool and you will feel the power of god. Read it while the TV is tuned to CNN and you will see how the tv will start to match what you are reading to a tee. It’s amazing. Donald Trump said 5 words I said seconds before while reading D/C for an answer as to why! And I was just discussing with my husband about it, and all of a sudden the news flashes a story about a new church movement and I got so excited. It’s real. So that’s that. Good luck to you, I had no luck with people of LDS, but lots of things with GOD and JESUS themselves, and they were written to be used as tools, not to take litarally. God is there, the congregations are drunk on power and taking that freewill away, trust me on this, I left too, but not totally, I read D/C, and still have my visiting teacher come and eventually I will find a better ward of hippies and folks like me, and I won’t join the ward, just attend. I’m still with LDS. God be with you, give D/C another chance.
@Heath James, Sr. — You are almost there; that is: to being completely free! Realizing that the Mormon and Joseph Smith experience has shown you it is all a bunch of bologna…well, the jump to realizing that ALL religion is manmade mumbo-jumbo for the purposes of: control, manipulation and making money (or profiteering at the expense of poor and unfortunate souls that can’t think there way out of a box)— well, then you can take it to the next level and be free of all religions. Break away of all your burdens and, once you realize the truth, then you can finally be free! Enjoy your life without that bogus thing that others “think” is god (because there is none). All the best in your journey of true discovery!
@William BUT keep Doctrines & Covenants Pearl of Great Price, because that is what helped me realize it’s not God or Jesus, it’s the Mormon congregations that are not real, and are fake. Not God. You need, as I did, to get away from the Church but Keep D/C for usage as a tool. There is a God, there is Jesus Christ, but LDS is a joke and I did notice that a lot of the little kids seemed to have ADHD, Bipolar, and other childhood mental disorders and I think it has something to do with the bloodlines being too close together. So there is much wrong with LDS, but not D/C even though it was procured by Joseph Smith. Otherwise leave as I did, but don’t denounce God. Good luck Heath James, Sr. And William, you were right about the congregation, but not God and Jesus.
@globalgoldira — What, and Jesus loves us because the Bible (or in your case the D&C and the PofGP and the Book of the Dead) tells us so? Please, the god and Jesus stories are all based upon ancient mythology that the Judeo-Christian movement morphed into their own; however, it is all mysticism created by power hungry men that has been used for centuries to control mankind and used to justify horrific acts that makes anyone who claims that god exists just as despicable as those who started the whole rant of mythology. There is no god or gods, there is no Jesus, there is no Zeus or Horus or Isis or any other pantheon of mystical beings; any more than there is a Santa Claus or an Easter Bunny! Knowing that truth (that there are no deities) is what will set you free!
@William OH MY! No God, no Jesus? You need to go to Doctrines & Covenants POGP, and see for yourself that there is a picture of the great circle with all Egyptian writing and figures on it, but it you look closer you see the whole story of Jesus Christ and I believe there IS A GOD and A JESUS. Sorry we can’t come to terms with it. I may have messed up with the Mormons, but I know God and Jesus are there for me, because I pray hard and get results. I may not be a Molly Mormon, and folks may not take to me because of my offbeat ways, then I turn to God and Jesus and they comfort me FAKE or NOT, I feel something. I know they are not sitting up there as men, but as energy and spiritual essences, because mankind does not know how to totally control mankind. That’s why D/C is VEILED, so people like you won’t dampen the message. I say LDS may not be right for me, and I am no Molly Mormon, but that D/C book has saved my frickin’ life and has brought me so much closer to what God and Jesus are and represent. So your rants of no God or Jesus shows you are a sad person and can’t be part of the social religion. ME???? I am an oddball person and that is why I didn’t fit in and they shunned me. I had to get away from them, and I did. But I am lft with a more belief in God and Jesus, and pray and ask them to help me all the time, and I don’t need to be bound in the temple, that’s the fake stuff, all that temple crap and baptizing the dead and the Mormon ways are fake, but not Jesus and God and what was in that D/C book and what I read to myself. I’m not trying to be mean, I just have my way sand due to God and Jesus I’ve been able to live t his long. I don’t intend to live too old, I want to basically leave the earth in the next few years. Remember William, people ruin it for people!
@globalgoldira — Whatever floats your boat and brings you happiness, then I guess that is all that is important in this short existence we call life.
For me, my happiness began once I freed myself from all religion and was able to realize that there is NO god in heaven or devils below us…and, as intelligent as you appear, I am shocked that you can’t see through the scam and realize that ALL religion (not just Mormonism) is MAN-MADE!!!
I also find it amazing that you think anything that Joseph Smith created was legitimate, especially since it has all been proven to be a fraud…boggles the mind you seem to think otherwise.
Anyway, have a nice life and enjoy your bliss!
I know the church is true
I’m a convert half my body covered in tattoos. Every week I cop it from members it’s a sin etc. Also I get bullied and gossiped about and all members but two have really stopped talking to me.
This is tough. I’m going to go to a different ward next week just so I don’t have to deal.
@Jae, don’t bother, they will shun you any ward you go to. I have been through two of them and just gave up. One girl said, “The congregation doesn’t get you!” I was so sad and down, but since converting to LDS (Mormon) I’ve had a very good relationship with God and Jesus, no joke! My life is changed, but I don’t go to any ward, but am still a member. You can do to any ward you want, so eventually I’m going to go to one across town. Good luck, and don’t be ashamed. I’ve been in your shoes.
Mormons are idiots sex addicts
boy you are right on that.looking to screw every women they can to make more babys to pay tithing and become queers like us
@Jae — If the church were true (big IF there) and if there were a true church on the earth and IF there were a god in heaven…and IF the Bible was really the word of a god or gods; then when you read the following, it would answer your question:
“A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another” (John 13:34-35). [Hint: by the fact that so much of the Mormon stakes, wards and branches are so clickish and will only accept “Molly Mormons & Holy Joe” types of members, that should show you that they are at odds with their own scriptures.]
On this point the MORMON’s fail nearly every time. So let that be a sign to you, if you believe in those sorts of things. Just be aware that all the other churches, with the exception of those that pay a lot of lip-service in attempts to “make” people think they love everyone; well, they fail at it too.
However, if you still think the MORMON’s have the truth and IF you think the Bible has any truth in it, then when you read this, it should remove any doubt about any modern religion (including the LDS church):
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” (Matthew 7:15-20).
Every church on this planet, including the LDS church is about these three (3) things:
1- Power
2- Control
3- Money
Anyone that tries to tell you otherwise is a liar. So take off the blinders, discover the real truth and then you can truly be free.
@William I know what you want!!!! You don’t want there to be a God or Jesus Christ, you want to run your own religious science church. I can take all your posts and turn it into its own Book of Mormon, the way you preach “NON GOD” jargon! You tell me always to find my bliss. William, I like that! I’ve learned so much about God and Jesus just by reading your rant posts on the fact that there is no God or Heaven and that religion is man made. YOU ARE RIGHT in one thing, Religion was created by man, but God and Jesus are real, and Man has such small brains that they can only treat God like a little kid reading a comic book as the Jehovah Witnesses doctrines look like (they resemble a comic book on God). Mankind cannot conceive God and Christ like God and Christ are. Mankind would become retarded and repressed, because of all the light, energy and basic radiation God and Jesus put out. That’s why we never see them in form. So my advice to you is to start your own thing, and then get your converts and why would you be disputing something you don’t believe exists anyways???? Just a friendly Mormon girl wanting to know. Hope you find your bliss.
@globalgoldira— Not quite sure how you are able to derive what I do or don’t want. But I do think it would be a major leap forward once all of humankind is able to come out of the dark-ages and stop thinking that mystical beings exist — YES! Also, I do not preach anything; that is, unless you are of the mindset that hoping everyone would be of sound reason instead of mysticism is a form of preaching.
I find it odd that you “think” or believe that you have learned about mystical beings (you call god or jesus) from books that have been definitively proven as written and created by men for the purposes of control, manipulation and profiteering — all done / created for the self-serving greed at the expense of less educated peoples. And that your stated reasons of why mystical beings are not seen is quite laughable — they are mystical, therefore NO ONE will ever see them!
My points of view have been formed over many years of study and yes, I was even raised in a Mormon household and many of my family still associate with this church, but thankfully I was able to discover the truth and finally able to set myself free. I progressed from being an agnostic, to an atheist and eventually arrived at being an anti-theist…all of which are not beliefs.
The truism that I have discovered, in the journey of setting myself free is: “We were all humans until, race disconnected us, religion separated us, politics divided us and wealth classified us.” And as long as this is the way of the world, then the human race will not ever be able to live as one (which means that religions have won by keeping people dumb and suspicious).
@William ARE you Homesexual, William? It’s not a bad thing, just that you sound like a ranting gay guy who can’t go back to the security of being ignorant.
@globalgoldira — Not sure why you feel a need to ask about my sexual orientation or how that has ANYTHING to do with this comment-blog; that is, unless you are attempting to ignorantly shift the argument to another topic. But to answer your question, no I am not gay — nor do I appreciate your attempt to try to make an implied ad hominem attack.
Sometimes, due to the willful ignorance of those that tenaciously cling to a need to believe in something, I may sound as if I am ranting — but that is only due to the fact that wanton obliviousness is a plague among so many Religulous types that genuinely don’t / won’t / can’t see the truth.
William! I very much appreciate your comments. My first time on this blog. I am well aquainted with your thoughts as went through similar situatioon and found the falsehood of LDS using their own documents. Here is mmy post earlier this a.m. Hope you are comforted knowing your not alone.
I was a convert at age 14 until 45 yrs. of age and very active as well holding many callings. I never could force myself to testify the robotic like statements most everyone gave at Fast Sunday. I guess the double standards many LDS members portrayed is what started me studying the church history in depth. What I learned through church history completely supported my deep feelings of deception, reversal of doctrines, adoption of conflicting doctrines etc. After several years of being told have faith, regard the church as a club if you really don’t believe all the doctrines. What finally infuriated me was the statements by officials was: Leave The Thinking To The Apostles and follow their counsel. I wrote a letter requesting my name be removed from the records of the church. It took many meetings and months before the church finally accepted my request. I received a letter that was very condescending in nature filled with brotherly love casting me into hell basically. The day I received the letter of confirmation I felt as though a thousand tons of evil was removed from my presence. I COULD SMILE AND LAUGH AGAIN.. I am grateful for the purity of life, honesty, integrity words of wisdom as my health an work career has greatly benefited. My own LDS relatives shunned me for about five years then started trying to convert me again. Since leaving the church I miss mainly the wonderful music. I have found much more supporting evidence of deception, lies, since removing my name from the church records. At that time Ex Mormon’s for Jesus was a tremendous help to me. If you are staying in the church because you like the lifestyle then continue on and don’t lose any sleep over it anymore. Just simply don’t let them make you a liar and speak your mind. I have not found anything better other than the Urantia Book and Foundation. The Urantia Book explains and answers all the questions I had prior to accidently learning of it. I know now that it was not an accident though now I read the Urantia several times.
@Rea — Thanks for sharing your story and I am sure that our stories are very relatable. It is amazing how liberating it becomes when you are able to free yourself from anything oppressive.
For me, once the realization that it (the LDS church and all religion) was all a lie had finally sank in (for me) it became a much easier path of discovery that all churches are nothing more than manmade structures (for profit and control) and that there is no god or gods above us, no heaven or hell and that we are not part of some convoluted great plan of happiness — instead, we are here to discover our own happiness and in that journey is where we eventually find our bliss.
Happy travels my friend!
My problem, all my life, to make me even be here at this site, is that I was always “in the right place” “the right timing” “the right intentions” “the right moment” “the right reasons” “the right place at the right time” BUT it was ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS “being around THE WRONG PEOPLE that made the temple walls fall down (literally).
I was a convert at age 14 until 45 yrs. of age and very active as well holding many callings. I never could force myself to testify the robotic like statements most everyone gave at Fast Sunday. I guess the double standards many LDS members portrayed is what started me studying the church history in depth. What I learned through church history completely supported my deep feelings of deception, reversal of doctrines, adoption of conflicting doctrines etc. After several years of being told have faith, regard the church as a club if you really don’t believe all the doctrines. What finally infuriated me was the statements by officials was: Leave The Thinking To The Apostles and follow their counsel. I wrote a letter requesting my name be removed from the records of the church. It took many meetings and months before the church finally accepted my request. I received a letter that was very condescending in nature filled with brotherly love casting me into hell basically. The day I received the letter of confirmation I felt as though a thousand tons of evil was removed from my presence. I COULD SMILE AND LAUGH AGAIN.. I am grateful for the purity of life, honesty, integrity words of wisdom as my health an work career has greatly benefited. My own LDS relatives shunned me for about five years then started trying to convert me again. Since leaving the church I miss mainly the wonderful music. I have found much more supporting evidence of deception, lies, since removing my name from the church records. At that time Ex Mormon’s for Jesus was a tremendous help to me. If you are staying in the church because you like the lifestyle then continue on and don’t lose any sleep over it anymore. Just simply don’t let them make you a liar and speak your mind. I have not found anything better other than the Urantia Book and Foundation. The Urantia Book explains and answers all the questions I had prior to accidently learning of it. I know now that it was not an accident though now I read the Urantia several times.
In all fairness, had an angry mob not murdered an imprisoned Joseph Smith, we might have the answers that allude us. Joseph was grossly imperfect, similar to Paul, Moses, King David, Peter, you or I. His imperfections and lack of clarity exactly mirrors what we see in all of religion. Does this make it less true?
The Urantia book and it’s claim of divine inspiration is no exception to the rule. It takes a large dose of faith to believe a comatose-like state produced eternal truths dictated by aliens through a man who has never been identified.
@Dwayne — None of it is true and all religions are false (at least in the sense that they claim they have been created for) since there is no deity, other than what man has created for the purposes of control and profiting from mankind’s willful ignorance.
If you study the history of any religious leader, Joseph Smith included, they did it for power and control and to create a feeling of a “safety in numbers” that is used to justify their self-serving purposes. If Joseph Smith had not been killed, he probably would have created a Mormon army to attempt to seize control of the USA (based upon the direction he was heading during his last years in Nauvoo).
So with Joseph’s death the Mormon church became more of Brigham Young’s church and he modified it for his own purposes. That is evident from his writings, recorded speeches and how he handled dissenters during the long journey to the West.
I understand where you’re coming from but I have two views that run contrary to yours. First, I believe Jesus actually lived and did not profit in any worldly manner. Secondly, I believe in Deity. Like dark energy, spiritual mass has not been observed but I believe it exists. I also believe love and hate exists, although we can not prove or disprove them.
@Dwayne you are right about what you say. Jesus did actually live, and he did not profit from his wanderings, only hundred of years later when the CHURCH BECAME CORRUPT! And that’s what happens in some congregations, they become closed and jealous of newbies and sometimes corrupt. I believe that God himself is ALL GOOD and ALL EVIL, but Michael is right about one thing, there is no DEVIL. The evil in the world is generated by Free Agency and by humans. God is so vast that people had to split him up into so many things when it’s only GOD/JESUS, look at the photo in D/C Book of Abraham the big circle, look at the first drawing in the middle, that represent One God/One Son!
@Dwayne — True, one cannot argue with a feeling…but, as you pointed out, a feeling proves nothing. I find that so many people, due to their weak natures and inability to stand firmly on their own capacities, desperately feel that there must be something out there. Yet, when it comes to people’s attempts to justify any form of deity, I have found that when trying to rationally show forth a lack of solid evidence or lack of justification for their feelings…it is much as Carl Sagan stated: “You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe.” Therefore, most weak minded people won’t allow themselves to see beyond the mysticism — because they “think” they HAVE TO believe in something.
To me, those that think there are any god or gods is just another example of how willful ignorance is a total disconnect from reality [ lawfully defined mental break known as: Impositional Religiosity or IR]. It is this unfortunate disconnect with reality and delusional condition (IR) that enables people to suffer from an aberration that they “think” is faith; thus, keeping some people in a dark ages type of superstitional mind-set.
Yes, it is truly sad that people, in this day in age, still believe in this mystical bologna.
@Dwayne & globalgoldira — There is ZERO proof that Christ existed and, to say that the Bible is the proof is the same as saying Greek Mythological documentation is proof of Zeus…or that the Quran is proof of Allah…or that the Book of the Dead is proof of Horus…or that the “Night before Christmas” is proof of Santa Claus…until there is solid evidence, it is all a myth.
It is amazing that you can make the jump to the fact that Joseph Smith was a fraud, who used the identical mechanisms crafted by the early Catholic Bishops to create the mystical Jesus — yet, you just can’t be honest enough and truthful enough with your own selves to come to the full realization that it was all a scam. Yes, ALL RELIGION is a scam and is based on similar fraudulant type mechanisms that play upon the minds of the willfully ignorant to be used to control you and, even more sadly, to prevent you from becoming truly free!
Globalgolira, Good morniing. I read a couple of comments you made. I am brand new to this site although I did write a comment to William whom you also interfaced with.
I am very interested in your being always at the right place at the right time, and how it backfired on you. It seems you need support from someone that has always given up opportunities in order to be with the right people; Maybe I was with the wrong folks after all. Enlighten me please! I am nearing 70 and still love learning and helping others. If you choose not to reply remember none of your good intensions will ever be against you rather setting you apart from those that choose to follow a dishonorable path. I salute you. I am very familiar with disparity and wonder why answers are not often not recognizable to me.
@Rea OMG, Rea, Good day to you! For some reason I’ve always wanted to be closer to god than most of the peers I was born with. I was born into a very wealthy Jewish family and lived in an elegant building on the 23rd floor of a big apartment building in NYC with celebrity types and famous UN delegates and more!!! I saw more in my lifetime than most in my wards that I tried to be part of. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and they just could not relate to me. So what I mean is I’ve always been in the right place at the right time, and moment, but always with the wrong people. When I first felt God, my mother tried to cut me down about it and even showed up to my school to yell at me in front of the whole class, and I was stigmatized greatly all my life. Because of first my strange Grandmother who was so religious and insane, I became anxiety ridden and other kids my age couldn’t get me like the congregation couldn’t get me. But I loved school and the teachers and the whole concept, and always did extra credit. Once in 7th grade my parents sent us to an all black school on the other side of town and we were ridiculed by everyone there and it gave me a complex, that only added to my anxiety. I could not sleep because my dad was manic depressive at the time and kept his tv very loud and I could not sleep. Then as we grew, I realized that my parents didn’t want us for having kids the real way, but we were (the 4 of us kids) ARM CANDY FOR DAD to dump money in these tax shelters with our names on them, and when he lost all his money, he cashed in those tax shelters meant for the kids (us), then he sat us all down and said he was gong to kill himself and to stick together. He tried 4 times and succeeded,and I think my mom helped him do it. She got a million and we got a million but mom started fooling around with the family trustee and together they invaded our monies with tax loopholes and stole it from us and now this all came to me when I started reading DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS PEARL OF GREAT PRICE, by looking to the sections of family births last two digest: 27, 29, 57, 59, 61, 64 all sections told me what was what and how it all happened. If you read thos same sections, you may not see what I saw, but pray God, go to the section that pertains to what you are praying to him about and read it. I start with the page number first. Like today if I prayed for answers on a problem or issue, Ria, I would turn to Section 10 or page 10 first, then go from there. But because I didn’t have the opportunity to be Mormon as a kid and throughout my life, I ended up around all the wrong people, due to my parents mostly. Now I am Mormon and although I do not go, due to my mental state, I still am Mormon.
I’ve been reading so much about how folks who left the church said it was fake, Joseph Smith was a sex maniac, yada yada! REMEMBER this, I feel that the religion end of Mormon is the key to understanding God and Jesus. As for the folks in the church, SUCKVILLE! I saw them for what they really were, and the missionaries and Elders. When I first started, I thought they were so holy and good, but I was wrong, and I found out that a lot of Mormon kids are mentally sick with Bipolar, Austism and a host of other mental disorders. I’d see the couples and kids and folks only in the church and wondered why none of them ever called and invited me over to eat or get a lift to church. Little by little I started to realize it;s not about them, it’s about GOD AND JESUS. Those two are NOT fake, NOT SEX manics etc. And Joseph Smith was just a vehicle to get the message to folks like normal us, who thought being Mormon and hanging with Mormons was something else, but it’s all veiled by God so we can learn slowly about people, scriptures and faith. I tried two wards and both said, “Oh, the congregation doesn’t get you!” They shunned me, etc. I stopped going to church after I did 3 events and saw the truth in the PEOPLE, not the religion. I have gotten so much closer to god and Jesus, but the congregations, NO WAY, no one ever calls, inquires or asks what’s up. I told my visiting teacher we were going to cool it, and he has not called to see about me one time since. So I know what’s up. I love DOCTRINE & COVENANTS PEARL OF GREAT PRICE because it has helped me understand why the congregations shunned me, murmured against me and other such crapola. I use the doctrine, not the congregation. I never go to church anymore, who wants to pray and take sacrament with folks that are not real, it’s them, not the religion, I didn’t TECHNICALLY leave the church, just the congregation, I JUST DON’T GET THEM!
The church is true. The members aren’t. The members especially the born and Breds are horribly judgemental.
But I don’t go to church for them I go for God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.
You need faith first before you really will know that this is true. Every day my testimony strengthens and my faith strengthens and the blessings that have been bestowed upon me are beyond what I ever thought would be possible.
The church is true there is nothing truer in the world.
All you need is a little bit of faith. That’s all it takes and you will see the truth.
We are taught to try out best to be like Kesus Christ. But we are also told that every single one of us sin. Even our prophet sins. Why? Because none of us are perfect. All of us are equal.
Think about the prophet Paul. He was a convert he hated the church before he realised the truth. Joseph Smith was also a convert as the church wasn’t on the earth until God utilised Joseph as an instrument in his hands.
The hate that people feel for this gospel I used to think this before I became a member I used to think.
They’re sexist
They make woman share their husbands
They don’t let you live how you want
But it’s far from the truth
Men can hold the priesthood, women can’t but women can hold authority in other ways. one reason that has been explained to me is that men need more guidance in keeping with the gospel. I’m not trying to cause offence but generally speaking women in the gospel can be better behaved than men. We all have different roles and we are all equal! It doesn’t matter what sex you are what religion, race, sexual orientation whatever we are all equal!
Multiple marriages used to be a part of this church. It stopped sometime in the 1800s and is not supported by the LDS church any longer. The women weren’t forced to share their husbands! It was more about populating the earth rather than treating women badly.
The second coming of Jesus Christ when there will be 1000 years of peace on the earth, no murder no hate just love. Than the earth will become like the garden of Eden it will be made perfect again. Those that are in the Celestial Kingdom will come down to earth and inherit the earth and live for eternity Down here. Now it is said that there are a lot more women in the celestial kingdom than men so it is said that when they inherit the earth there will be a few women to every man. It’s not about treating women grossly. It’s just about men and women both need each other. And one women shouldn’t have to miss out on having a husband etc.
As long as you try your best to live the gospel to standards that’s all Heavenly Father asks of you. As long as you try.
This church is real. Heavenly Father is real. Jesus Christ is real. The Holy Ghost is real. All my prayers are answered.
If you seek Ye shall find.
If Ye knock it shall be opened unto you.
If Ye ask Ye shall recieve.
Just try it guys have a little bit of faith. Prey to Heavenly Father ask if the Book of Mormon is true ask the questions that you want to ask. They will be answered unto you via the Holy Ghost.
I agree with every thing you say @Jae! Except that whole thing about the 1000 years of peace and more women in the high heaven than men. When we pass away, we are not men and women, we are energy and soul only, we don’t even realize we are passed away it is so peaceful. Yes, there are levels of heaven, but we do not come back here to Earth again. Our souls are dispersed into pure energy and we are with God and Jesus Christ in a spirit sense, not human, only energy, in different levels. We won’t be sharing our Godly energy with Charles Manson or Jack the Ripper! But you are right that we will be with our loved ones, or those in the higher heaven. We are not even aware of our past life on earth, just a peaceful breathing, floaty feeling, not even speaking. YES, the church and doctrines of Mormon are true, but yes, the congregation and peoples in there are mostly MESSED UP, and I ain’t no MOLLY MORMON, the women were very jealous of me because of my joy over being in the church (LDS) and that I could totally translate the doctrines and versus and story, and I even was where Joseph Smith saw his vision, and walked the earth and I saw where he found the golden plates left by a lost tribe of Vikings and a very old Indian tribe called the Anastazi. Joseph found those plates buried in these big hills, I SAW THOSE HILLS and I asked our counselor at the time what they were and she said they were a very old Indian tribe’s storage hills and there was gold in there, and we all started to try and dig up treasure but she said it had all been found. It was right where Joseph Smith lived in Upstate NY! So I am a changed lady since embracing Mormon LDS values. I am not perfect, but I am repenting and I notice that the more I translate the LDS doctrines, the less friends I have, the more alone I have become and my family has abandoned me, my husband is very distant. But I take comfort it’s because once I said to God I wanted him to be my father, husband, family, etc., everything else dropped off, including the LDS congregations I tried to fit into. They are so fake and not following things except on Sundays. And they are all dressed up and nice, but when I met with some of them last year for a few event meetings I was astonished. The couples were slovenly and unshaven and wearing sweat pants and there was a young Mormon kid banging his head against the floor screaming for his pennies. I tried to help him, but was shooed away by everyone. Many ignored me, and were jealous when I knew what was what in the doctrines and Book of Mormon and told them I was there where it all began. They were jealous and mean and horrid people, but LDS is my saving grace. I read my doctrines, listen to God and Jesus, and pray. I try and live right, it’s not easy to rid myself of evil thoughts, but I am a good person in my heart. I wish it had worked out for me with the two congregations I tried to be part of, it didn’t. Life goes on! Peace.
oh you are so right,,and the Mormon money machine takeing your money
Tithing is between you and God no one else.
No one comes up to you with a gun at your head to make you pay tithing.
Half the members I know don’t pay tithing that doesn’t mean they’re damned!
No one threatens us no one can make us pay tithing.
Why are so many people so ignorant.
Find out facts first.
@ Rae on Rose’s Tithing Comment — According to Malachi 3:8-12; 3 Nephi 24:8-12 and a number of other scriptures you profess belief in; this is a commandment to pay a tithe and, many an old LDS patriarch would call it fire insurance. Additionally, any member of the church who wishes to enter the temple must be a 100% full tithe payer; otherwise, their temple recommend cannot be issued or is void. Every member of the LDS church, in order to be in good standing with the leadership, knows that they must be full tithe payers; as well as, participate in the Missionary Fund, Building Fund, Fast Offerings, etc…so, do not for a moment kid yourself into thinking that you know all the facts. Because if you are not full tithe payers, in accordance with LDS church doctrine, you will NOT be saved on the last day (hence the erroneous term of calling it “fire insurance”) and, according to scripture, one that does not pay will NOT gain the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom — in other words: They will be damned.
Celestial kingdom is the highest where God and Jesus are right.
Than there are the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms.
If someone is a member and doesn’t pay tithing does not mean they’re damned what is wrong with you!!! You can still go to one of the kingdoms where you are worthy to go and Jesus and God will choose that not man!!!
You don’t automatically go to hell for committing sin or not follow the commandments completely you just may miss out on going into a higher kingdom.
Hell is separate. People will only go to hell when God does not dwell within them because they are so evil so Satan takes them away and God will not dwell in those people. Now these people that go to hell are truely evil!!!!
Get your facts right just because you do one thing wrong doesn’t mean you go to hell. Hello this church is reasonable!! God knows that we will make mistakes. he is forgiving and merciful to those who are truely repentant.
@Jae on Tithing Comments — From your comments I can tell that you are neither well versed on Mormon Doctrines nor knowledgeable in much of the foundational beliefs for many of those in the LDS church. You really should study more of what you profess to believe in — if you do (study more) you might be surprised at what you will find; that is, if you can keep an open mind about it.
First, according to LDS belief, there are Three Kingdoms in heaven, with each having specific levels of glory within each degree of Mormon Heaven (we are not referring yet to Outer Darkness — that is another conversation). The highest heaven, the one that every Mormon is supposed to be striving for, is the first degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom. In LDS circles, to achieve any other level, based on Mormon theology, is the same as being damned (since to be damned is to be “thwarted” from achieving the place where God & Jesus reside; that being, the first degree of glory).
Second, many Mormon theologians confess that (in their humble opinions) the vast majority of LDS peoples will end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom (middle glory) because each Mormon “knows” what they should be doing and don’t (for all those sins of omission…not just the ones of commission).
Third, even men and women (unless they die prior to a reasonable age) that might have lived an otherwise perfect life and kept every single commandment; yet, they are not sealed in the Temple to a worthy spouse for all time and eternity…well, they would only make it to the second degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom — Wow, doesn’t that sound like a fair, just, loving and compassionate Father in Heaven that would “damn” someone just for not being married in his holy temple?
Fourth, in the doctrines of the Mormon Church, the Telestial Kingdom is considered “hell” and is not the same place in which the Sons of Perdition will end up; that place being Outer Darkness (the lowest form of Hell).
In conclusion, based upon Mormon scripture and teachings, someone that is of the acceptable age and is NOT temple worthy, does not pay their tithes & offerings faithfully, has not been married in the temple and does not keep all commandments, avoiding sins of omission and has NOT had their “calling and election made sure”…those people will NOT be found worthy, when brought before the bar of Christ on their Judgement Day and will NOT be allowed to enter into the first degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom (which by definition is a form of being damned).
Sure, you can go to church and partake of the sacrament in their Sacrament Meetings, praying & hoping that the gods in heaven will forgive you…something that many people of many Christian religions hope for (that being to be forgiven). And perhaps, over several thousands of millennia and working on becoming perfect (provided all your temple work has been done), you might be able to move up a degree; however, in the doctrines and policies of the Mormon Religion, NO-ONE can move between kingdoms and reservations to be in the first degree of glory with god is ONLY reserved for those that kept HIS commandments in their mortal existence!
Have a wonderful life in your pursuit of the truth Jae!
that’s what the lds church is all about..geting your money.its the biggest fraud ever pulled and you dam fools fall for it
I’m only a convert of 7 months. I was not bred into the church. But I can tell you I’m a full tithe payer and I can see the blessings and I’m not even going to go into what blessings I recieve because there are too many and by now I know the type of ignorant people that I’m commenting to.
No one makes you pay it!!!!!! Half the members don’t pay it. I choose to pay it, it helps the humanitarian fund, the needy, it pays for church gatherings where we have food and DJs, it helps build the church up, it helps maintenance with having the churches, it helps the missionaries get around (flights, car maintenance, fuel etc). It helps the needy. If someone is in need of financial support the church will give them money. So that’s just a little insight into what tithing pays for.
@ Jae – on Tithing — How do you think that the LDS Church has become the wealthiest church in the world, second only to the Catholic Church…and in less than 200 years? Because the people are told they will not be saved on the last day (read Malachi) nor will they gain entrance into the temple and, most importantly, it will impact their eternal salvation — so they are told to pay unless they want to burn! That sound like a strong motivator; that is, if you believe in that mythological mumbo jumbo?
Don’t you find it just a little bit odd that for a god or gods that are supposedly ALL powerful, ALL knowing, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and have created worlds without end — don’t you find that it is odd that HE NEEDS OUR MONEY? Have you ever for a just a second stopped to question that motive that, from all outward appearances, that it only benefits certain people; however, it does NOT benefit god — unless you are going to tell me that the all-powerful god can’t survive without filthy lucre too!
I don’t want to waste my time on anymore of this back and fourth. I’m not a missionary and my knowledge of the gospel isn’t perfect. Again Malachi is in the Old Testament. I just keep repeating myself. The Book of Mormon is for the latter days as in now. Things have changed since the Old Testament. I’m tired of explaining myself to you people.
You have all tried all you could to change my faith in this gospel. Your attempts have been useless I have simply increased my faith stronger.
I really have sorrow for the amount of souls that Satan has a hold onto.
May our Heavenly Father have mercy on all your souls.
You just don’t even read what I wrote before.
Spirit prison and hell are not a part of the kingdoms.
The three levels of kingdoms are for GOOD people.
Just because you don’t make it to the highest kingdom does not mean your damned.
All the kingdoms are still run by GOD. The most blessing are in the celestial kingdom but just because you don’t make it there and you enter into one of the other two does not mean your damned.
Damned is being in hell. I’m pretty sure I already explained that in my last comment but you don’t seem to have the capacity to read and comprehend what I’m saying.
I look forward to when Jesus Christ comes back down to the earth again and people like you with hard hearts Judging his gospel ignorantly without knowing what’s true and what’s not. I look forward to most people finally believing and Satan won’t have a hold on any man.
@ Jae — Oh I did read what you wrote; however, it is quite obvious that several things are at play with you: 1) You did NOT read thoroughly what I wrote; 2) You really have not studied the doctrines, teachings and scriptures of the Mormon Church very well, and; 3) Only an ignoramus would claim, as you have, that I was “ignorantly” judging the gospel — all of which shows that you have not learned much at all (in your short journey) since, in my commentary, I was not passing judgement; instead, I was succinctly pointing out the false-truths that you claim to believe in. Yet, as I read what you have stated in this blog, I can tell that your soul is screaming out at you to be freed from this lie that you think is the truth; the lie that you call the LDS Church. Otherwise, why would you be browsing a sight such as this one; that is, if you were not searching for ways out and striving to become free of this Mormon cancer.
But, back to your response…
I did not say anything about Spirit Prison, I mentioned Outer Darkness which is where all of the Sons of Perdition and the followers of Satan (according to Mormon Scripture) will be cast out to AFTER THE FINAL JUDGEMENT! That is not the same thing as Spirit Prison or Paradise. Also, if you have ever had occasion to read a dictionary or Mormon Doctrine or even the Scriptural Concordance for the definition of “DAMNED” it means to be denied being in the presence of god, thwarted from progression or to suffer condemnation and suffer (due to not being in god’s presence). Sure, the Mormon leaders and teachers of the faith try to make everyone think that we will all be saved and that, other than the Sons of Perdition, everyone goes to heaven. Unfortunately, if you actually take the time to read through all Mormon scripture and study their doctrines as stated by their prophets and apostles, you will discover that in all reality, only those in the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom are the ones that will be in gods presence (all other degrees might be able to see god from a distance but will not be in gods’ presence).
What blows my mind is that you obviously appear to think god and Jesus are loving, caring, benevolent, fair, forgiving, merciful and just beings — again, you have NOT read the entire canon of scripture have you? The first mass genocide, according the religious record, was delivered by Jehovah (that is Jesus in the pre-New Testament records) killing all but Noah and his family and two-by-two of every creature — what kind of a loving being does that? How can a loving father think it is OK or that his children are better off by all being dead? That is just sick!!! Then, when the Jew’s returned to Israel, Jehovah justified their destroying (via genocide) entire races and cultures of people — and you are OK with that too?
And now, you appear to be looking forward to the mystical end times when Jesus will come back, burning up the planet and killing off all those that would be at the Telestial level (I guess god doesn’t have the power to deal with his children…it is just easier to kill them off). Then, after the massive destruction and reconstruction of the planet…peace will reign for 1000 years; after which time, because god doesn’t think he can trust his children anymore, he will re-release Satan for a season to see what will happen; which will result in the final battle of Gog & Magog and the final destruction of the earth — all of which is necessary in order for god to usher in the earths paradisiacal glory.
Perhaps when you read all of that you might think it is fantasy; but, that is the paraphrased version of what you say you believe in, right out the Mormon scriptures. Any if that is what you believe in, I have to wonder who the real idiot is (I will give you a hint: It’s not me).
Again you are assuming you know me. I’m pretty sure we’ve established that you don’t know me. I have read the Book of Mormon twice and have read d&c once and POGP once New Testament once and the Old Testament I have read 1/3 of it.
The bible is needed and is the basis but a lot of the stuff in it is horrific. After Jesus died the law of Moses was fulfilled. That’s why Book of Mormon is more for Latter Days as in now because it applies to us more than the bible.
If Jesus didn’t die for us law of Moses wouldn’t be fulfilled.
Yes God had said that his people were not repenting of their sins. He sent them prophets and the people slaughtered them. He sent time and time again and the people were ignoring the warnings.
He didn’t warn them once but over and over again.
After he caused the great flood do you also know what God had said??!!! He basically admitted that it was harsh and he said that he would never do that exact same thing again.
God admits that he is a jealous God and basically that he has also learnt through the beginning of man lessons for himself. He sent Jesus Christ down here to understand more about us etc etc.
If you think that having faith in something is ignorant what is your valid proof that God and our church is not real. Targeting people of the church like prophets is not evidence.
I am a convert as I have previously mentioned. I am a 26 year old female and I have an arm and a leg sleeve of tattoos and have more on my body. I have been judged because of my appearance. I came to this site because I wanted to share my story about being misjudged and how hurtful it is and how maybe others can take comfort in my story. I didn’t come here because I was questioning the truth of the church. I came here questioning why some members can be so horrible when it’s against gospel to judge.
But hey don’t listen to me I’m just an ignoramous.
You know what’s great though that I love. You’ve been researching the gospel yourself that’s what I love. I feel like I have accomplished some of God’s work, the seed has been planted in you.
I don’t know if you have any faith in anything at all as apparently according to your knowledge faith is ignorant. So I don’t know how you think we got here but it’s pretty funny.
Next time when you are going through a trial in your life are you going to pray? Do sometimes things work out for you amazingly and you wonder why? If someone you love is in hospital or battling an illness, would you think to pray？
I leave you with that.
Ignoramous out.
@Jae — I don’t know you and never implied that I did. All that I have of you is what you wrote, along with your opinions and personal commentary. So not sure why you thought I had assumed anything.
However, while we are going through intro’s and, from what you wrote here — do you feel that becoming part of the LDS Church has made you a better person? If that works for you, then knock yourself out! But you should note that this site is titled: “Why Mormons Leave” …I don’t think the intension was to be a commentary on why they stay or what they believe.
Regarding studies: I have studied the Mormon phenomenon for nearly half a century (I was even born one), I am degreed in history & philosophy and even graduated from seminary. I have read the bible so many times I lost count, the Book of Mormon over a dozen times, as well as the PofGP & D&C too. Oh, by the way, if you read towards the end of 3 Nephi (in the BofM) you will find that Joseph Smith wrote the words of Malachi in there…he didn’t want people to think that by Jesus fulfilling the Law of Moses that people wouldn’t still have to pay for the privilege of membership.
It still amazes me that you can admit that god is flawed; in spite of the fact that in several places in the scriptures god claims that he is the same “…yesterday, today and forever…” Yet, you have acknowledged that god said he was learning from his lessons and realized that things like the flood and other genocidal tendencies might have been wrong. Do you comprehend what is being implied there? God can’t be perfect on one hand and not on the other; hence, it is all a man-made creation.
Praying is nothing more than meditation and having conversations with ones owns self. There is no god to neither listen nor answer you. And to think that all good things that happen are from god and all bad things must be from the devil — that is infantile. However, if you want to hold to that mythological belief…then you must realize that if god created everything (since the scriptures say god created everything) then he created evil too.
Obviously you think you have found happiness so, enjoy it while it lasts…but do keep studying and hopefully you will find the truth someday.
Well since you have implied I really shouldn’t be on this site now I feel unwelcome so thank you for that also. I came here to find out if other people had troubles with judgement as I have and I wanted to get strength from others stories.
I don’t believe that everything in the our scriptures are always to be taken literally. That’s how I see it. We are told that God is still learning sure but he was the same yesterday today and forever that’s fine. But can he not learn on the way. Can he not make mistakes on the way. Where he said he wouldn’t do it again maybe I’m reading into it wrong. I was brought up to hate religion and god I’m only 7 months in as I said I don’t have a perfect understanding but from what I’ve been taught and read yes God is always the same but things become new. If God always stayed the same than the law or Moses would be stayed we would still be burning lambs for sacrifice or using slain birds blood and dipping a live bird in the blood and splashing it on the house 7 times you know how crazy that is for our generation if people went around doing that.
They talk in parables. Not everything is to be taken literally. Like how God made Adam from the dust of the earth is that literal or does he mean he is that powerful he can create whatever he wants from nothing.
I don’t know I don’t over analyze things.
I read and I feel that it’s true. The Holy Ghost has given me promptings and dwells within me he is the revealer of truth and he reveals these things into which are true.
I don’t know what else to say you people I am going through another trial in my life and I just don’t have the capacity to keep up with these messaging. But I can’t honestly tell you my life in the last 7 months has improved drastically beyond I ever thought possible.
Also lucifer was one of gods spirit children who wanted to have Jesus role in the world and the creation of it. God chose Jesus so lucifer and half the Angels or 1/3 God kicked out of heaven so they can never have a body or walk the early except by possessing gods children.
If bad things don’t happen we can’t appreciate the good. Adam and Eve in the garden didn’t know good or bad or sorrow or hate or love or unhappy or joy. They just knew life as it was. If they didn’t do something bad like partake of the fruit and got kicked out of the garden of Eden we wouldn’t be here today.
Bad things happen so we can appreciate the good. Life is eternal.
I can tell you all day it is true. And you can tell me all day it isn’t true. I never used to believe it was true and now I know it’s true I will never go back. My life is blessed we obviously can’t convince each other of each others beliefs.
And again I’m so sorry I broke an unwritten law about coming to a website to get some strength from I wanted to know that others have had trouble in the church with members. I don’t have issues with the gospel it’s just the members that I struggle with.
And I thought considering it was called a comprehensive list I thought judgement would be considered one of those issues and hence why I went onto this site.
Take it away. Rule the Internet you keyboard warrior. You will not longer hear from the ignarmous imbasoul or whatever else it was you called me.
Enjoy your life.
“Eternal damnation is the opposite of eternal life, and all those who do not gain eternal life, or exaltation in the highest heaven within the celestial kingdom, are partakers of eternal damnation. Their eternal condemnation is to have limitations imposed upon them so that they cannot progress to the state of godhood and gain a fullness of all things.” Elder Bruce R. McConkie
the Mormon church has nothing to do with jesus Christ your god is Lucifer ,satan hes the one that joseph smith dealt with not jesus
Also many members aren’t worth to enter into the temples.
Church is separate from the temple.
Everyone and anyone can go to church to the sacrement meeting.
The temple is sacred therefor holds more commandments. No one can just walk in off the street who is not a worthy member.
In saying that members that do have temple recommends who aren’t living righteously shouldn’t enter into the temple but some still do.
@”Just try it guys have a little bit of faith…” — The level of willful ignorance that you display is staggering! It is also amazing at what lengths some will go to justify their beliefs, no matter how un-sound and un-founded they might be. For all the reasons you claim you do not like the LDS church; these are things that “should” open your eyes to the fact that it and all other churches on this earth are man-made creations to fool gullible people (as you appear to be).
What you and others think of me is irrelevant. People have trials. We can’t be children about it and give up on everything and have a tantrum when something goes wrong. My faith is trialed constantly. I am continually faced with temptations. Doesn’t mean I give up or have a cry about it because I don’t get my own way.
I am somewhat certain you have no idea who I am or what country I come from, my upbringing, career or whatever. Yet somehow your only defense to my comment (which in no way is meant to be offensive it is just me sharing my beliefs), which I have rights to do yet somehow you have made an attack on me as a person. How big of you. Give yourself a pat on your back for effort I am giving you a very slow clap right now for you as it takes so much strength to be a keyboard warrior.
Thank you for your efforts on trying to hurt my “ignorant, gullible self”. Try harder next time though if your intentions are to ‘hurt’ my poor little feelings haha.
I love Jesus Christ, he suffered far worse than any of us ignorant people can even begin to imagine!!!!
@Jae — My previous response was not intended to hurt your feelings. (The fact that what I said did cause any discomfort does show that you already know that you believe in something that your soul is telling you is wrong and, more importantly, should tell you that your argument is weak; that is, if my comments offended you). Instead, my previous posting was a commentary on how, in spite of all the facts and discoveries from the past 100 years that people can still believe in a mystical being and what is blatantly obvious mythology — yet, regardless of the facts and proofs, can still claim belief in things that do not exist or have strong beliefs in the tenants of a religion that is false; hence, my presumption is that it must be willful ignorance or a complete mental decision to turn ones back on the myriad of facts that shows you are on the wrong path.
You are right though, I don’t know you or your past or where you come from…any more than you know my history; however, that is all irrelevant to the fact that ALL religions are nothing more than the creations of men for the purposes of control, mass manipulation of thought and for personal gain (or profiteering). One thing that I have learned is, as Friedrich Nietzsche once said: “Sometimes people don’t want to hear the truth because they don’t want their illusions destroyed.” So, I am sorry to have chipped away at your illusion; however, to believe in a mystical being is no different than believing in: Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, The Tooth Fairy, Jack Frost, Frosty the Snowman, Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, Leprechauns or Pixies & Fairy’s — Just because people might believe something is true DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE (or real)!
You might say that you think the scriptures are the word of god…again, that would be a false assumption on your part and there is countless volumes now of solid evidence that they are the creations of man. Here are a few examples for you to bounce around in your head:
* The Old Testament or Septuagint — that is nothing more than Jewish mythology to which they have said and proven it as such. Most of the tales found in that old book are the amalgamation of much more ancient stories of mysticism or a plagiarization of the Egyptian religion (all of this is part of the scientific record.).
* The New Testament is 100% a copy of over a dozen variants for near and far-Eastern versions of the same story that, according to early Catholic bishops, was a “made up” story in the first place. If you have ever heard of: Krishna, Odysseus, Dionysus, Heracles, Glycon, Attis of Phrygia, or Horus (story of Isis) — if you have not heard of these ancient mystical stories, then I would encourage you to read about them; because it was these stories that the early Catholic fathers created the Christian mythology from and the story of their Christ (an almost direct copy of the story of Horus).
* The Book of Mormon — a story that Joseph Smith took from someone else and made it his own. The peoples in this story and the line told by later church leaders has since been disproven via years of DNA research. In other words, the ancient inhabitants of the American continent could not have come from anywhere close to the middle-East as the BofM would have us to believe.
* The D&C is nothing more than a ramblings of a womanizing, philandering pedophile that utilized this medium as a way to control his wife and his followers.
* The PofGP has been proven to be complete fabrication and, with the discovery the scrolls that Joseph Smith “claims” to have translated from (once discovered in the Chicago Museum and thought to have once been lost in a fire) have now shown what he claimed was written in those scrolls to now be false.
Therefore, don’t fall into the trap and illusions of many devout believers who don’t base anything on logic, facts and tangible evidence; nor fit into the mold as described by Carl Sagan when writing about believers: “You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe.” Instead, study and discover the truth, then you will truly be free.
@William OY VEY William, OY VEY! Geezus! I’m constantly blown away by your words. Some of it makes sense, yes the church is a man made thing. But God and Jesus Christ are real. I know it. I feel them. I don’t hate the LDS church, I just didn’t get along with the congregations, just like when I was in high school, junior high, summer camp, jobs I’ve held, etc. – they hated up and DIDN’T GET ME either, so again, it’s not God and Jesus, it’s the people. You have made valid points on things, but not all you say is totallllly correct. You make your points, but even if Joseph Smith was what you said, I still believe D/C POGP, because when I pray on a certain day or date, I ask God to give me an answer, and then turn to either the page number in POGP or the Section in it that coincides with the date I am praying on. So I read that particular page or section for my prayer questions on December 28, and somehow the answers I ask are contained in that POGP text, very interesting and new for me. I’ve straightened out more because of it. BUT, for folks like YOU William, the doctrines and church beliefs are VEILED because your posts are very inflamed and jagged. You must have been abused most of your life, you talk about God like my own dad who blamed God for everything bad, and tried to do to me what you are posting, but sitting me down and talking to me on it. I under stand what Jae is takling about: @Jae I GET IT, and I don’t condemn you for your beliefs, it bolstered my own, thanks Jae. @William Wow, you even made my faith stronger, you are like the evil that followed Jesus into the desert and tried to tempt him and say God was not true. GEEZUS, get a life William.
@globalgoldira — What equally blows me away is that, for all intents and purposes, you appear to be otherwise intelligent; yet, on the other hand you are sucked into an emotional feeling that you “want to” believe is real and “hope & think & pray” that it is real — yet it is not real and your brain should be able to tell you that you are being delusional to believe in something / someone that is no more real than Santa Claus (Note: WANTING something to be real, that does not make it real]. Love, hate, anger, etc.; these are all emotions / feelings that might “feel” real, but they are not something that is tangible.
I do find it interesting that you are able to acknowledge that all churches are man-made, as well as admit that Joseph Smith was a bad man — then, in the same breath (so to speak) you think that these man-made holy books are true or have helped you find god..? ANYTHING that came from the churches of old or the American churches of the new world, they are FRUIT of the SAME poisonous tree; meaning: They are all TAINTED! Can’t you see that or even understand that? If the Jewish scribes and Rabbi’s admit and even teach the Old Testament (Septuagint) admitting that it was strictly a mythological writing and that many of the books within it (e.g., Ruth, Job, the story of Jonah, the Songs of Solomon, the Adam & Eve story, etc.) are all plays; the New Testament has been admitted as a plagiarized fabrication by the Catholic Church, and: Joseph Smith has been discredited as a philandering, gold-digging treasure hunter, a pedophile and a fraud — can’t you see that ALL of this info that you claim as having led you to god is ALL TAINTED? If you cannot see that then you are blinder than a bat and dumber than a Dodo bird.
Also, the fact that you continuously throw ad hominem attacks at me or think that I was abused or by calling me “evil” truly does diminish your character and shows the flaw in your intellect. I would suggest a better approach if you decide to reply again.
It is interesting to read through all of this… “discussion” and realize that both of you (@Jae, @William) may very well be using an unwarranted emotional appeal as well as slanted language, and irrelevant rebuttals/premises. I feel as though both could have had good premises, but as a reader and critical thinker, the discussion seemed to be emotional and uninformative due to the jargon and witty banter. @William I’m calling you out because throughout your responses you were verbally abusive. I’m sure you know thats not a great way to reply and “I would suggest a better approach if you decide to reply again.” Here are a few of your inappropriate responses:
1) @Jae “gullible people (as you appear to be).”
2) @Jae “I have to wonder who the real idiot is (I will give you a hint: It’s not me).”
3)@Jae “Only an ignoramus would claim, as you have”
4) @Jae “If you cannot see that then you are blinder than a bat and dumber than a Dodo bird.”
Even after you said “My previous response was not intended to hurt your feelings.”
So was every other response similar and including the 4 stated meant to hurt her feelings?
Anyway, I have my own beliefs that I am in no way interested in sharing here, but what I am interested in is how @William after half a decade of studying the bible came to the conclusion “-its all a scam.” and that he defends it with what seems like a grudge. I am also wondering why @William studied it for so long and what finally pulled him away.
I will hand it to you @Jae I am surprised you continued to argue (certainly not debate due to the emotional ties on both ends).
@William you did make some great points that I have never thought about.
I would also like to pose a question and ask for a response from @William:
How do you respond to Pascal’s Wager:
(this is only part of the theory)
1God is, or God is not. Reason cannot decide between the two alternatives.
2A Game is being played… where heads or tails will turn up.
3 You must wager (it is not optional).
4Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
5 Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (…) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
6 But some cannot believe. They should then ‘at least learn your inability to believe…’ and ‘Endeavour then to convince’ themselves.
Good job Jae. William, you’re a hot mess. I’ll pray for you. Hope this helps.
@connor — Yes, this is or has become an interesting blog / forum. Some that have shared a few items do appear to strive for some true thought and observation; while others, not as much. Granted, some of my responses have become a bit short and even harsh at times…but, as the title states: “Why Mormons Leave” and is not about why they stayed, in spite of it all.
I am sure there are other forums available with the intent to save the lost sheep and help return them to the fold — but, unless I misunderstood the suggestions from the site owner, I don’t think it was about all the wonderful things about the Mormons and why I want to stay. Or did I miss something along the way?
For me, I am usually happy to know that if someone has found what brings them true joy in life; well, then I would think they have found their bliss. Yet, when I run into a steady stream of willful ignorance, I might get a bit punchy in my writing. The fact that you noted that some of my responses were inappropriate is noted…and it is sincerely appreciated by me and will guide me to writing with a more steady hand in the future.
On the question of Pascal’s Wager..? I doubt that I could answer it more concisely or expound any further on it than Voltaire did — but will end this note with a final observation by Voltaire that sums it up for me: “…that no matter how far someone is tempted with rewards to believe in Christian salvation, the result will be at best a faint belief…”
Happy Trails!
We left because of not because of abuse, but because of the culture of enabling abuse that we found in the church.
When it became necessary to cut my wife’s sexually abusive sibling out of our lives, it was horrible, but not all that unexpected, to find that her parents and siblings in unison turned their backs on us. This is pretty much textbook behavior from a serially abusive family structure.
What was unexpected was that we received the same treatment from so many church members that knew us both… even members of my family, and the local stake president.
The human instinct to ignore abuse and not get involved seems to have found a comfortable disguise in the church. We found the church, as a unit, to function very much on the same model as an abusive family. Hide it, pretend it never happened, ‘forgive’, blame the victim, and put on a smiling mask.
I had been able to take all the obvious historical, doctrinal and scientific problems of Mormonism on ‘faith’ for most of my life, but when I came face to face with the culture of enabling, it was the jarring jolt I needed to break out of the memeplex. It was like waking up.
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I’m starting to lose interest. I’ve been a member for 28 years and have been in our ward for 21. I’ve only given a talk once-when we first moved in. Never have had presidency positions or taught lessons. It’s bureaucratic. They size you up and judge. I’m a music educator. Never conducted choirs. Always these positions are given to those with money and position. I live in an affluent area. All those in presidency positions are rich. I’m fed up. All I do is play the piano on call. I’m sick of sitting on the bench. And, the bishop silenced me twice. He slipped a note to me twice while giving my testimony! -saying, “keep it Christ centered” or “short”. The nerve! I’ve never seen anyone else get a note. I want him out. The problem is, you can’t leave and join another ward. Only by moving and that’s what I want to do, just because of that.
I had to question the Church when I would be refused a temple recommend if I failed to pay tithing or was not current on child support. However it was okay to allow someone who illegally entered into the United States and committed a felony to allow that person to be approved to go on a Mission while the Church turned a blind eye to the felony that was committed.
People also leave when they have seen children bullied at Church and bring it to the leadership, who does everything in their power to ignore it because it does not involve their own children being victimized. Anyone that has been involved in the Church knows about the cliques and when children are bullied, frequently it is with the sons or daughters of the Bishop, Relief Society President or other leaders who have been raised with the opinion of entitlement.
I have also had the occasion to report a high ranking church official for misconduct. The regional representative was given the information on how this leader was victimizing many members of the church and initially it appeared that Regional Representative would take action. After not hearing back from him, I then called him and his whole story changed about investigating and talking to other victims. As it turned out the offending Church Official had a lucrative insurance contract with the regional representative who owned an insurance company. As a result he did not want to rock the boat so it was okay those who had been initially victimized were victimized a second time by the Regional Representative not taking action as he had promised.
One thing that really stood out for me is the wealth factor. Our ward was divided into two sections, those who have (wealth) and those who were doing the best that they could. All of the leadership positions were held by people who lived around the Bishop. (Wealthy section) Those people got the good home teachers and visiting teachers. Those members got calls when there was a church function or dinner. Those who lived on the other side, frequently had no visits, no contact when members where in the hospital and frequently no hello’s from the leadership when you would see them out shopping.
If you were divorced you are singled out that you must have done something wrong. I was once told that I could no longer hold a leadership position because of the divorce despite the fact that the x-wife is the one who left the marriage. I have also found out that if you are a single male raising kids on your own, do not expect any help from the Church, however if you are single and female they will do everything in their power to call you, stop by and visit you and help in any way that they can.
Probably the hardest thing to see is when people fall on hard times and are denied assistance from the Church when they have lost everything. I have watched many times when families have lost their houses, jobs and everything they had and being told by the Church that they needed to put more effort into seeking outside sources before asking the Church for help. They would sell one of two cars, turn off the cable, internet and really watch every dime that they spent. Then watching as the Church would provide monthly checks for members who overspend and live outside of their resources and receive a monthly check to pay for the Suburbans, BMW’s and other expensive vehicles rather than being told to downsize and make a proper budget.
As many have said in this article, I looked through the list and found it to be spot on. Its okay for the Bishop to have a yearly tithing settlement and ask me if I paid a full tithe, however if I ask the Church what they are doing with my tithing money I give to the Church every year, it is held in secrecy.
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I am not leaving but will be no active and not pay my tenth. I was punished of my Bishop because I did travel to Salt Lake City and had a meeting with Elder Randall K. Bennett who did a note for Neil Andersen about what happen in the meeting.I felt I couldn’t go through my Bishop because he should never have understood what I said so I fly to Utah from Sweden. I am a woman and it make it worse.
My Bishop said he had never been to Salt Lake City so I think it was also envy why he closed me to not be worthy to be in the Temple and now needed to built up trust in wht he is think I should do to get it…… NEVER ! …. I am a free person and don’t want to be judged and put in prison of my Bishop.
I had a testimony to Apostle Neil Andersen because Jesus Christ come home to me together with His Father and I have been educated by heaven and GOD have talking to me for 17 years now but there is no one picking up the messages from GOD I have to give and I think it is most because I am a woman and not a man.
If I had been a man I had been all over the world speaking from GOD.
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I left because, though I was raised to revere the priesthood and I those who held it, the leaders believed gossip from people who held higher position, rather than showing spiritual wisdom and true spiritual discernment. In my case, I was punished for anothers sin. Later the truth was revealed when the other persons actions caught up and revealed that persons true character. I asked for help, for a chance to speak to those in authority and was turned away, so there was nowhere to go but out. Later I found it was a blessing in disguise because I found out about Christianity and the Grace of God through the cross, which set me free from condemnation that I carried from my LDS background. I love my LDS friends and relatives… pray they find peace in Christ.